Orval Recipe... Too Much Sugar?

[peas_and_corn]

I've got my copy of BYO's 150 clone brews, and am going to give their Orval recipe a go... However, there's a lot of sugar, and was wondering if maybe it needs adjusting...

6.25lbs Pale ale malt
2.5lbs Vienna malt
0.25lbs crystal malt
1.75lbs cane sugar

7.5AAU Styrian Goldings (60 mins)
2.5AAU Styrian Goldings (15 mins)
.33oz Styrian Goldings (dry)

Yeast- Wyeast 3522 OR 3526

Thoughts?

 

[kook]

I've got my copy of BYO's 150 clone brews, and am going to give their Orval recipe a go... However, there's a lot of sugar, and was wondering if maybe it needs adjusting...

6.25lbs Pale ale malt
2.5lbs Vienna malt
0.25lbs crystal malt
1.75lbs cane sugar

7.5AAU Styrian Goldings (60 mins)
2.5AAU Styrian Goldings (15 mins)
.33oz Styrian Goldings (dry)

Yeast- Wyeast 3522 OR 3526

Thoughts?

Have you had a look in BLAM? I can't remember whether they provide precentages there, but I'd imagine it's quite high considering how dry the beer ends up even when fresh.

I'd be using WLP510 if you can get hold if it, it is supposedly the Orval yeast. Any highly attenuating Belgian yeast should do well though. Then add a couple bottles of Orval to secondary for the brett, or add a pure brett brux culture from wyeast or whitelabs.

I've had success adding orval dregs at bottling time. Took a while for the character to develop (2-3 months) but it did dry out the beer well.

 

[matti]

I don't know the taste of Orval so any advice on cloning it would be silly.

On the sugar advice It will taste slighty thinner with with some mollasses undertone.
This may be completely disguised in this particular recipe and balance out the flavour all together.

As for any really bitter ales around IBU 46+, I sometimes add some Brown sugar to sweeten the profile some.
It works well in APA or IPA.
Styrian golding i have never use so i cannot comment ob reipes as such. I am sure of that I l'd never use that much sugar in any brew.
Just my 2c worth

Matti

 

[Duff]

Have you had a look in BLAM? I can't remember whether they provide precentages there, but I'd imagine it's quite high considering how dry the beer ends up even when fresh.

BLAM note clear liquid candi sugar for around 16%.

Definately one I'd love to try. Just has something that makes you want to take another sip. Probably the Brett.

Time to sideline one of the older plastic fermenters and give it a go.

Cheers.

 

[glennheinzel]

I haven't any experience with brewing this one, but I found the following thread on another forum which could be useful-
Link

 

[peas_and_corn]

BLAM?

 

[n00ch]

Brew Like a Monk I assume?

 

[glennheinzel]

Correct - Brew Like A Monk
Dymocks link

 

[tangent]

love the replies "never tasted it, never brewed it but ....2c...2c"

do you have a modern day equivalent to that measurement? 16% does seem high but I'd guess not out of this world for a Belgian beer. The Brett would definitely dry it out though.

 

[peas_and_corn]

Correct - Brew Like A Monk
Dymocks link

Ahh, for a while I was thinking-

BLAM!

 

[Quintrex]

Warren get your ass in here and help the man out!!!

I tasted warrens attempt using orval dregs and it was pretty spot on! Just got to be careful of the brett. making bottle bombs!

Q

 

[Stuster]

BLAM note clear liquid candi sugar for around 16%.

Which is exactly the same sugar percentage as in that recipe. Looks like a reasonable recipe to me. Like those tips kook.

Love Orval. Must get round to doing something like this too.

 

[Duff]

Zainasheff's receipe in Brewing Classic Styles is very similar to the link that Rukh posted - 75% Pils, 10% Sugar, 15% Caramunich.

 

[Jazman]

og 1055

abv 6.8%

apparent degree of att 94%

ibu 38
malts 3 pale malts, 2 caramel malts

adjuncts clear liquid candi sugar(16% of ferm)

hops styrian goldings, Hallertau

yeast orval

yeast is pitched at 14 deg may rise to 22 deg 4 days

secondary 3 weeks @ 15 deg with new yeast including brettanomyces and styrian golding flowers

notes refermentation in the bottle with primary yeast for 5 weeks at 15 deg ..centrifuged,but brettanomyces remains and will continue to ferment


From Brew like a monk get the book lots to learn about belgians

 

[kook]

On the sugar advice It will taste slighty thinner with with some mollasses undertone.
This may be completely disguised in this particular recipe and balance out the flavour all together.

As for any really bitter ales around IBU 46+, I sometimes add some Brown sugar to sweeten the profile some.
It works well in APA or IPA.
I am sure of that I l'd never use that much sugar in any brew.
Just my 2c worth

Molasses flavours from white sugar?

I've used 15% white sugar in pale belgians to dry them out. They certainly don't taste thin, due to the amount of dextrins present in such a high gravity wort.

This is not a beer you want to sweeten in any way. It should be bone dry, hoppy and slightly funky.

BLAM note clear liquid candi sugar for around 16%.
Time to sideline one of the older plastic fermenters and give it a go.

If you're not willing to risk one of your fermenters, another option is to let it ferment out, then buy a cube or bucket for $10 and add the orval dregs at bottling time. Its a little more risky predicting the amount of priming sugar to add considering the brett addition, but figure it removing another 2-3pts as a start. Use strong bottles as a precaution

 

[kook]

Sorry to drag up an old topic, but thought this may help anyone looking to replicate the flavours.

I just popped open a bottle of a Bretty Amber Ale that I brewed in June last year. The base beer was around 1.050, hopped with Styrian Goldings. Fermented out with US-05, then bottled along with the contents of two orval bottles. It took a few months for the brett flavour to be detectable, and it clashed at little bit with the hop flavours at first.

Just cracked open another bottle tonight - Wow. It's a totally different beer now. Huge funky nose, loads of barnyard and hay. The flavour is wonderful, starts out a bit musty, then finishes dry, funky and a little tart. Really happy with the results.

I guess what I'm getting at here is that you need to be pretty patient. I'm sure you could achieve the same results faster through adding a huge brett culture at bottling, but it might become too overpowering with time. This is currently really well balanced at 9 months old, now its going to be a challenge not to drink it all!

BTW - Anyone who tasted what was supposed to be this beer at the WA christmas case swap day, it appears I stuffed up the numbering system with my stored beers. That was infact a Belgian Dark Strong Ale, which explains why it was lacking in brett character!

 

[peas_and_corn]

What sort of mash schedule should I go for? the bloke at the store said that I should mash relatively hot- single infusion at around 67-68C, but I'm not sure- thoughts?

 

[kook]

What sort of mash schedule should I go for? the bloke at the store said that I should mash relatively hot- single infusion at around 67-68C, but I'm not sure- thoughts?

I think there are two schools of thought with this -

1. Mash high - Resulting in extra dextrins for the brettanomyces to work on. Problem with this is its potentially going to be difficult to calculate carbonation levels as you really don't know how far the brett will attenuate. It'll also take a while for the brett to really dry the beer out to the level that you want for this beer.

2. Mash low - Resulting in a dry beer to begin with. There will still be enough left for the brett to work on, but not amounts so large that it may drastically affect your carbonation. The only thing is the brett flavours might not develop as much if they don't have anything much left to consume?

 

[Weizguy]

Sorry to drag up an old topic, but thought this may help anyone looking to replicate the flavours.

I just popped open a bottle of a Bretty Amber Ale that I brewed in June last year. The base beer was around 1.050, hopped with Styrian Goldings. Fermented out with US-05, then bottled along with the contents of two orval bottles. It took a few months for the brett flavour to be detectable, and it clashed at little bit with the hop flavours at first.

Just cracked open another bottle tonight - Wow. It's a totally different beer now. Huge funky nose, loads of barnyard and hay. The flavour is wonderful, starts out a bit musty, then finishes dry, funky and a little tart. Really happy with the results.

I guess what I'm getting at here is that you need to be pretty patient. I'm sure you could achieve the same results faster through adding a huge brett culture at bottling, but it might become too overpowering with time. This is currently really well balanced at 9 months old, now its going to be a challenge not to drink it all!

BTW - Anyone who tasted what was supposed to be this beer at the WA christmas case swap day, it appears I stuffed up the numbering system with my stored beers. That was infact a Belgian Dark Strong Ale, which explains why it was lacking in brett character!

I second that idea of dragging up a topic. Haven't performed any resurrections for a while.

I believe that I advised kook that I'd post here when I drank his Bretty Amber.
Funk-o-delic. More Orval than American amber. Great creamy persistent head on a dark amber beer with a beckoning effect on the subconscious.

The aroma is fruity-flinty and mildly phenolic. Not as flinty as Orval. Maybe that's because I detect some hop aroma. Attractive, in a Belgian way. As it warms, the aroma delivers fruit in abundance, with a saddle leather edge.

When fridge-cold, the beer has a hop bite that is accentuated by the phenolics from the Brett. Malty, slick mouth-filling texture expounds creaminess. As it warms, the flavours, like many lowlanders, open up. When cold, this would make a bitter session beer, if that appeals. And as it warms, the appeal becomes broader like the malt and fruitiness. The phenolics blend with the hop bitterness, and the beer dries out on the palate, leaving you with the fllinty aftertatse and lingering bitterness of the Orval.

Enough praise. An Orval clone won the BoS at the HAG comp earlier this year. There is a HAG comp coming up if you have any more of these, kook.

I recall reading a story about the Mob trying to make inroads in Hawaii. They sent 2 of their top hit-men to smooth the way. The hit-men came back shortly thereafter in a large box, in pieces. There was a note in the box, which is relevant here in case you were wondering. It simply stated, "Delicious. Send more". I concur.

Les out