Ok, Really Really Stupid Question

[Lobsta]

ok, tomorrow is brew day, and i really really dont wanna f*%k it up. i have a can of black rock dry larger k&k LME and all the other shyte to go with it (1kg dextrose, etc), so i have all the gear, just no idea. i have bolded the main queries i have, but if anybody wants to critique my proposed method, it would be much appreciated...

the kit comes with the dry enzyme which will make the beer low carb, which i dont give 2 craps about, but my brew partner is a bodybuilder and is worried about his figure (yeah, i laughed also), but after i heard that this will raise the alcohol %, i agreed (dont hate me, i am i uni student, i would drink just about anything containing alcohol). after reading around, i plan to use this pre-boil, then boil the little buggers before they kill off too many of my complex carbs, so there is a balance between low carb and flavour.

my brew plan is as follows:
- spend a long time cleaning, sanitising with sodium met, then rinsing like buggery
- boil about 12L of water in brew pot (19L capacity), using this as a final sanitise for some equipment, then put (read: splash lots) into fermenter to cool
- rehydrate yeast as per HTB
- put another 8L (too little? should i do 9 to account for evaporation?) into brewpot and raise temp to around 60ish degrees C
- warm the LME can then dissolve into warm water
- add the 1kg dextrose (is this the right time to do this?)
- mix in dry enzyme, cover and leave for around 30 mins to let the enzymes do the work
- bring pot to boil

this is where i lost it... should i boil for th full 60 mins as it says in HTB, even though i am not adding hops (the kit is hopped, once again, dont hate me, its my first day... ) or should i boil for less...

- (back on track around here), after boil of indefinite time period (see above), cool quickly in tub of water with bags of servo ice in (dipping covered pot in)
- when cooled wort is around 25ish degrees, splash into fermenter
- add (read: splash) rehydrated and proofed yeast
- seal, add boiled water to airlock
- stick in previously mentioned tub of iced water with old towels wrapped around fermenter and place in cool (...ish, this is brissy) place, continuously putting frozen milk bottles in water and changing water every few days (being careful not to disturb fermenter too much when moving (and unsealing airlock first and covering hole with glad wrap)
- try to maintain around 18 (realistically, 22) degrees fermenter temp
- after 3 (or 4) consecutive days of a solid SG reading, bottle
- use 1 brewcraft carbonation drop per stubbie
- cap (duh)
- leave for 2 weeks minimum before trying first bottle.

cheers fellas

Lobsta

 

[Thunderlips]

- spend a long time cleaning, sanitising with sodium met, then rinsing like buggery

You'll need to do that but next time you could use a "non rinse" sanitiser like Iodophor, One Shot or Starsan.
It'll save time and water.

this is where i lost it... should i boil for th full 60 mins as it says in HTB, even though i am not adding hops (the kit is hopped, once again, dont hate me, its my first day

You don't need to boil anything apart from water.
I've never boiled the contents of a brew can.

It's all too easy to make beer from a tin of goo.
Here's my simple procedure...

Put tins of goo in bucket with boiled water, to soften it all up.
I put enough water in there to reach near the top of the can.

Clean and sanitise fermenter(s), stirring spoon, stainless tablespoon and air locks.

I use dry malt extract (500gms) and put that, along with dextrose (500gms) in the fermenter.
I then spray in some cold water from a hose, maybe about 3 litres or so, and mix it all up.
I've found hot water clumps the dry malt but I know others here do use hot water.
Once it's mixed up you can then put in some boiled water, 2 litres or so, to further help mixing.

Then I take the tin from the bucket of boiled water. Remove the lid and empty into the fermenter.
Pour some boiled water in the tin and mix it around with the tablespoon so you can get the rest of the goo.
You'll need a tea towel becase the tin will be too hot to hold. Pour the rest into the fermenter.

Stir it all up and then you can start adding the rest of the water. Again, I use the hose.
Watch the temperature of the thermometer on the side of the fermenter and adjust with boiled water to get your desired temp.
Stiring from time to time as you go.
I fill to about 20 litres. I use kegs so don't need the extra litres anyway.
Then I sprinkle to yeast on top, close the lid, move to fementing fridge and pop on the air lock.
I fill the airlock with my sanitiser solution.

Sanitiser is a different subject but to give you an idea you use 1ml of iodopher per 1 litre of water.
One shot is 1 teaspoon per 1 litre water and starsan is 1.5ml per litre.
All the above is non rinse.

I usually wait about 7 days and then transfer to keg and carbonate.
That's about it!
Easy.

 

[kabooby]

As Thunderlips says, It doesnt need to be that complicated.

Make sure everything is clean and sanitised
Chuck all your contents in the fermenter with some water to disolve
Top up with a mixture of boiling water and tap water to achieve 20-23 litres of 22C wort
Pitch the yeast
Stir
Put the lid on and leave it

Be careful using water from the hose as it may have some of flavours. Dont really need to boil your water first and then cool. Generally if your water is OK to drink then its OK to brew with (Unless its tank water, this should be boiled).

Kabooby

 

[petesbrew]

As Thunderlips says, It doesnt need to be that complicated.

Make sure everything is clean and sanitised
Chuck all your contents in the fermenter with some water to disolve
Top up with a mixture of boiling water and tap water to achieve 20-23 litres of 22C wort
Pitch the yeast
Stir
Put the lid on and leave it

Be careful using water from the hose as it may have some of flavours. Dont really need to boil your water first and then cool. Generally if your water is OK to drink then its OK to brew with (Unless its tank water, this should be boiled).

Kabooby

Am I understanding that this is this your first ever brew, Lobsta?
Thunderlips' & Kabooby's method is pretty much what is shown on the coopers instruction vid. Nice and easy.
For Kit & Kilo, it's really basic. Once you start steeping grain, hops etc, that's when it gets more involved.
Good luck.

 

[Cracka]

Hay Lobsta,

Make sure you have a read of the link in Thirsty boy's post as well


http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...c=19748&hl=


Some good info in there to.

 

[crozdog]

HTB talks about brewing with unhopped malt extract (LME or DME). Tins of goo are hopped. Boiling a tin of goo will darken it & change the hop flavour/bitterness. Do what the guys say for your 1st brew, it will be great - cause YOU made it - especially if you can keep the ferment temp down.

AFAIK, dry enzyme should be added to the wort not in the boil, allowing more long chain sugars to be converted to alcohol resulting in a thinner dryer reduced carb brew.

Read more, ask questions, use the search functio (or better still use google to search AHB) experiment with steeping hops & grains to add more flavour and body to a kit. Read up on partial brews. These use a mini mash with the wort added to malt extract (LME or DME) which is then boiled and hops aded. They can produce excellent beers & give you greater control over the flavours and process.

welcome to the forum and one of the best hobbies/obsessions you can have :beer: Remember it is all an experiment & we learn best through trial and error.

crozdog

 

[beernography]

I bought one of those snap-on dog washer type hoses for the kitchen sink. Dunk it in NR sanitiser, spray down the tap and snap her on ready to fill the fermenter. It doesn't stink like a normal garden hose.

 

[EK]

Kit and Kilo brewing is basically the "shake and bake" equivalent of making beer. Unless you have some really good reasons for going to that extent then don't. Also I don't see why you would be going to that extent with Kits.

Here is the general process I observe:
1. Mix up sanitiser solution in fermenter (I use Sodium Metabisulfite). Put all items to be sterilised into the solution in the fermenter.
2. Get a saucepan and fill it with hot water and rest the kit in it. Just the tin, of course. To clarify: I use a saucepan so I don't have to fill a sink, I DO NOT BOIL THE KIT.
3. Every now and again, go and make sure that everything is sterilising nicely, give it a swish, make sure everything is submerged.
4. Boil 2L water.
5. After the sterilising has been going to about 10 mins, take it all out and empty the fermenter. Give a rinse. Make sure that nothing that wil touch the beer comes in contact with anything else (like a table surface when you put it down).
6. Open Kit tin.
7. Pour boiling water into the fermenter.
8. Add Dextrose (or whatever else I am using to make up the Kilo part of "Kit and Kilo"). Mix thoroughly.
9. Add kit contents, again mix thoroughly.
10. Add water to 20L/23L or whatever volume I am making up. also using chilled water to get the desired temperature.
11. Pitch yeast.
12. Screw the lid on.

heh...12 Steps.

Hope this helps. :icon_cheers:

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Lobsta - your method as described, is pretty much just what everyone is telling you to do anyway, you've just managed to make it a little more complicated.

The main place you differ, is in the fact that you are going to use the dry enzyme the way I suggested, rather than the way most people use it. Crozdog doesn't agree..... oh well, you get to take your pick of methods.

If you do decide to do it my way, you will need to bring that (tin goo and water) mixture to the boil, but you certainly don't need to boil for an hour, just bring it to the boil and turn it off. I would put the sugar in after it has boiled and you have turned off the heat. It would inhibit the activity of the enzyme if you put it in earlier. You also don't need to chill it down in ice, just put it in a sink of water for a little while to knock some of the heat out of it, it will cool down when you mix it with the rest of the water in your fermentor.

Boiling the rest of the water in your fermentor - you can if you want. But there really isn't any need, and then you just have to cool it down. And splashing things around will only help to get oxygen into the wort when its cool.

The other thing to remember is that if you us that dry enzyme without reducing the sugar, you will indeed increase the alcohol... but you wont particularly reduce the calories, carbs yes, calories some, but not a heap. I will say nothing about what it will do to the flavour, it might turn out great..........

You're making life a little hard for yourself, but you're also being pretty damn thorough, so I have no doubt that it will all turn out fine

Jst remember it supposed to be fun too

Thirsty

 

[Trough Lolly]

...If you do decide to do it my way, you will need to bring that (tin goo and water) mixture to the boil, but you certainly don't need to boil for an hour, just bring it to the boil and turn it off.

G'day TB,
I'm curious as to why you need to boil the hopped malt concentrate? Coopers confirmed that they boil their malt extract so unless you're adding malt and hops in addition to the kit, I cannot see any real benefit in re-boiling the kit, unless you want to knock out the heat sensitive / volatile hop aroma compounds in the kit. When I used kits, I used to mix the dextrose with boiled water and then add the kit since the heat in the water helped blend the sugars and kit before diluting with cold water, but I never did any wort boiling until I got into steeped grains and hop additions to the kit based wort.

Cheers,
TL

 

[Thirsty Boy]

G'day TB,
I'm curious as to why you need to boil the hopped malt concentrate? Coopers confirmed that they boil their malt extract so unless you're adding malt and hops in addition to the kit, I cannot see any real benefit in re-boiling the kit, unless you want to knock out the heat sensitive / volatile hop aroma compounds in the kit. When I used kits, I used to mix the dextrose with boiled water and then add the kit since the heat in the water helped blend the sugars and kit before diluting with cold water, but I never did any wort boiling until I got into steeped grains and hop additions to the kit based wort.

Cheers,
TL

Nothing to do with the extract TL - only got anything to do with the dry enzyme. Most beers made with the DE put it in the fermentor, where its free to play its horrid little game till it turns your beer into highly alcoholic water. If however you put the enzyme into a nice mash temp wort solution, then it will work quite quickly, reduce the complex carbs to sugars; and then you kill it by bringing the wort up to a boil for a minute. Reduced carbs, lighter thinner beer; but not no carbs and yellow firewater.

I actually wouldn't use the damn enzyme at all... but at least by using it this way you have some control over it. You can adjust the contact time before you kill it up or down; and after a few brews you might get something reasonable.

 

[braufrau]

the kit comes with the dry enzyme which will make the beer low carb, which i dont give 2 craps about, but my brew partner is a bodybuilder and is worried about his figure (yeah, i laughed also), but after i heard that this will raise the alcohol %, i agreed (dont hate me, i am i uni student, i would drink just about anything containing alcohol).

Ummm ... but that just means more carbohydrates are converted to alcohol and alcohol has calories too.
There are 7 Cal / gram of Alcohol and 4 Cal / gram of carbohydrate (but 1g of sugar gives about 0.5g of alcohol if its completely converted)
and alcohol is metabolised preferentially to carbs (i.e. first) because its a poison although I think it doesn't require insulin to do so.
So I think you should make the beer you want to make. Tell your friend its a big B vitamin pill and if he doesn't like it, have a steak!

 

[chovain]

Yep - the whole "low carb" thing is a marketing gimmick, and a complete crock: Where do people think the energy is going? Unless your friend has a legitimate medical reason for avoiding long chain carbohydrates, just make it the easy way, and lie.

 

[Thunderlips]

Be careful using water from the hose as it may have some of flavours.

This is true.
There was a big discussion about this a while back.
Some use the hose some don't.
The kind of hose you use can also have an effect on water taste.
Melbourne water is pretty good and I can't really complain but I am curious to try a water filter like the one Ross sells
to see if that makes any kind of difference.

 

[braufrau]

Yep - the whole "low carb" thing is a marketing gimmick, and a complete crock: Where do people think the energy is going? Unless your friend has a legitimate medical reason for avoiding long chain carbohydrates, just make it the easy way, and lie.

Interestingly I have a friend who is type 1 diabetic and he says beer doesn't effect his blood sugar levels because alcohol makes him low and the carbs make him high and it all balances out.
Not sure how big the grain of salt needs to be with that observation.

 

[Lobsta]

Ummm ... but that just means more carbohydrates are converted to alcohol and alcohol has calories too.
There are 7 Cal / gram of Alcohol and 4 Cal / gram of carbohydrate (but 1g of sugar gives about 0.5g of alcohol if its completely converted)
and alcohol is metabolised preferentially to carbs (i.e. first) because its a poison although I think it doesn't require insulin to do so.
So I think you should make the beer you want to make. Tell your friend its a big B vitamin pill and if he doesn't like it, have a steak!

dw, i gave him a big rip for the low carb thing (the phrase "low carb beer?! why dont u just have a galss of water ya big pussy?" was thrown around). but the increase in alcohol was what swayed me. plus he went halvsies with me on buying the original setup. but he is going away in a few months to float around on a cruise ship for half a year, so i have all that time to perfect my brewing by myself then force him to like that beer .

and on braufrau's point-
while not being anywhere near to an expert in this point, there are some differences in how the calories from alcohol and carbs are used. ethanol (C2H5OH - drinking alcohol), is one of the rare molecules that is able to pass across a cell's membrane with no controls on the part of the cell. this means that all alcohol taken in by the body is metabolised into energy when it is consumed (as rightly pointed out on another thread, this accounts for the warm feeling).

glucose (or any other simple sugar, which all complex carbs/sugars are broken down into) on the other hand, must be diffused into the cells via means of facilitated transport, sometimes active, sometimes passive. this means that instead of all glucose being metabolised into simple sugars immediatly, the cells are able to 'select' whether or not to metabolise it (based on existing concentration inside the cell). this therefore means that not all carbs ingested are metabolised straight away and a lot are stored as glycogen (as my fave lecturer put it, glycogen is 'people starch' - a long chain carb produced by people). while a lot of glycogen is stored in the liver, it is also deposited around the body in fatty (in an aesthetic, not a technical sense) deposits.

so, while alcohol contains more calories per gram than carbs, the alcohol is completely burned off, whereas carbs tend to hang around and make out asses fat.

as i said at the start of this, i am by no means an expert in this field, and if anybody can see holes in my science, please inform me (kindly) by means of a reply in this forum.

cheers muchly

Lobsta

 

[Trough Lolly]

Nothing to do with the extract TL - only got anything to do with the dry enzyme. Most beers made with the DE put it in the fermentor, where its free to play its horrid little game till it turns your beer into highly alcoholic water. If however you put the enzyme into a nice mash temp wort solution, then it will work quite quickly, reduce the complex carbs to sugars; and then you kill it by bringing the wort up to a boil for a minute. Reduced carbs, lighter thinner beer; but not no carbs and yellow firewater.

I actually wouldn't use the damn enzyme at all... but at least by using it this way you have some control over it. You can adjust the contact time before you kill it up or down; and after a few brews you might get something reasonable.

Thanks for that TB - I've never used the stuff (DE) myself...

Cheers,
TL

 

[Thirsty Boy]

No worries TL - I'v only ever had anything to do with its use at work, never on HB.

To the people who keep believing that the low carb beer thing is a marketing trick, I will repeat what I recently wrote in another thread... you are wrong

All you have to do to confirm this is to read the label on a bottle of reduced carb beer.... You will notice that the alcohol level is not increased over that of normal beer - therefore saying that the complex carbs are converted to alcohol and the calorific content will be uneffected, is just not correct.

If as a homebrewer you were to simply put dry enzyme in a beer, it would be close to what you are saying (although lobsta is right, the point of low carb is NOT to reduce calories, its to reduce complex carbs.....) BUT, the commercial beers are designed so without the enzymes, there would be less alcohol, the enzymes bring it back to normal. Result, about half the complex carbs and around 2/3rds to 3/4s the calories. The info is all on the labels and while they can be full of spin, they aren't allowed to actually lie about things like calories or alcohol content.

None of that makes the beer anything special, not my cup of tea at all... but they DO have less calories and they DO have less carbs. Whether or not you think that is important is entirely up to you

 

[recharge]

"but the increase in alcohol was what swayed me."


If this is your only reason just add more fermentables to your brew. eg malt dextrose atc.

Regards

Rich

 

[Screwtop]

ethanol (C2H5OH - drinking alcohol), is one of the rare molecules that is able to pass across a cell's membrane with no controls on the part of the cell.

Yep, I sure can feel that happening after a couple of stiff drinks :lol: