Off Flavours (the Twang)

[phoenixdigital]

Hey all,

Have done about 8-10 batches - mostly extract, just starting on partials. Do not seem to be able to get rid of that 'twang' / yeasty taste after the beer communities help please!!, .......we are doing the following;

• great hygeine and sanitation
• fermentation at steady temperature controlled fridges - 17c
• rehydrating dry yeast prior to pitching, or re-using previous brews yeast (meaning shouldnt be underpitching -?)
• letting brew sit for 2 weeks, always making sure that FG is stable
• racking for up to two weeks at 10c
• bottle for 3 weeks at room temp...approx 18-20c (brisbane tail end of winter)

Generally we follow this recipe method

1. Heat extract tin
2. Pour into fermenter with small amount of hot water
3. Pour and stir in 1 kg of DME
4. Then we fill to 23 litre mark
5. Then we add dextrose to bring the OG up to about 1.050 or 1.045

Could any of these steps be bringing in the ass taste?

The last two brews we have made were partials where we followed the same steps but steeped a small grain bag in boiling water for about 15 minutes. Then did the above.

Does anyone have any advice where we could be going wrong here? It is starting to get embarrassing offering our shitty beer to our friends but we dont want to give up we just want to get it right.

 

[Nick JD]

Try using Light Dried Malt Extract and do a 5L, 60 minute boil with 400g of LDME and your hops.

Old cans can be responsible for twang. It's really difficult to make a kit beer taste great.

 

[megs80]

Have you tried a high quality dry yeast like fermentis S-04 of US-05? They tend to be better than most under the lid and are quite clean. I know the flavour your talking about, getting rid of that became a Gaol which took my brewing from hobby to obsession.

 

[phoenixdigital]

Try using Light Dried Malt Extract and do a 5L, 60 minute boil with 400g of LDME and your hops.

Old cans can be responsible for twang. It's really difficult to make a kit beer taste great.

Thanks for the response.Yup we have tried both LDME and DME however we have not added some to the boil yet.

Have some water on the boil now for the next one so will try adding some to it now.

What would boiling the LDME achieve?

As for the old cans I dont think its that as we have been buying from pretty decent brew shops so I would say they would have high turnover of stock.

Have you tried a high quality dry yeast like fermentis S-04 of US-05? They tend to be better than most under the lid and are quite clean. I know the flavour your talking about, getting rid of that became a Gaol which took my brewing from hobby to obsession.

We have used Safale yeast at all times and have thrown the yeast from the lid in the bin each time as many here have suggested.

Recent beers we 'harvested' some white rabbit yeast from their dark ale. So far this beer tasted great out of the FV but is still in bottles so am not 100% if this has cracked it. There didn't appear to be that twangy but it could also be due to it being our first dark ale so that could be masking the flavour.

Yes we can relate totally to the hobby to obsession. It's starting to consume alot of time researching and trying out different things to get rid of the twang.

Thanks for the tips guys. Keep the suggestions coming please.

 

[pcmfisher]

I think what Nick Jd was referring to was using unbittered malt (either liquid or dry) boiled up with fresh hops to achieve your bitterness and flavour instead of your prebittered isohopped cans like for example the Coopers supermarket range.

You will make a way better beer.

Having said that, you can hide a multitude of sins with lots of flavour and aroma hops

 

[loikar]

Aren't you all proud of me?

I haven't mentioned once that that reason he cant get rid of that over-tensioned banjo in his beer is because he's making the equivalent of a White Wings cake mix and expecting it to come out like Some kind of glowing Gnoise Cake that Gabriel Gat get's all amorous about and starts wiggling a french loaf around in the back his own Khaki corduroy slacks, Like Peppe-le-pew just ate 6 viagra tabs and found the red light district for cats.

I didn't mention once that he won't start making truly great tasting beer until he get's rid of the "Shake 'n' Bake" beers and starts making his beer from the proper ingredients that beers supposed to be made from.

I didn't even mention that moving to BIAB or a 10L small batch on the stove is way more fun and just as easy as busting open a tin of goop and adding sugar and water.

I bit my tongue and restrained from commenting about it at all!

I hope you Extract Brewers are happy!

h34r:


BF

 

[felten]

I'd be happier if you kept the schtick to yourself

 

[yum beer]

Aren't you all proud of me?

I haven't mentioned once that that reason he cant get rid of that over-tensioned banjo in his beer is because he's making the equivalent of a White Wings cake mix and expecting it to come out like Some kind of glowing Gnoise Cake that Gabriel Gat get's all amorous about and starts wiggling a french loaf around in the back his own Khaki corduroy slacks, Like Peppe-le-pew just ate 6 viagra tabs and found the red light district for cats.

I didn't mention once that he won't start making truly great tasting beer until he get's rid of the "Shake 'n' Bake" beers and starts making his beer from the proper ingredients that beers supposed to be made from.

I didn't even mention that moving to BIAB or a 10L small batch on the stove is way more fun and just as easy as busting open a tin of goop and adding sugar and water.

I bit my tongue and restrained from commenting about it at all!

I hope you Extract Brewers are happy!

h34r:


BF

well done fingers, didnt spot a single dig in that post!!!



in all seriosness though, let those beers sit for at least 3 months before drinking, it will make a difference, though that twang can be hard to hide at times.

 

[BeerSwiller]

I think all my kit brews had a nasty 'twang' until I started using malt extract with a kit and made a 5lt mini boil and added hops to this along with using good yeast and ferment control...
Get rid of the excess sugarz! It's makes for unhealthy yeast and therefore pumping nasty flavours into your brew.
Maltose = yeast nutrient
Sucrose or Dextrose is only a fermentable and offers not nutrient...

Small amounts are ok, but just doing the old k&k and dumping 1kg into 23lts doesn't tend to yield great results.

 

[phoenixdigital]

well done fingers, didnt spot a single dig in that post!!!

in all seriosness though, let those beers sit for at least 3 months before drinking, it will make a difference, though that twang can be hard to hide at times.

Yeah we have put aside 7 bottles from each batch at another house as an "archive" so we can come back to it and taste it months later. If its too easily accessible we will no doubt drink it.

Some of our crappier beers tended to start tasting good towards the 2 month (in bottle) mark... but by then there are stuff all left.

We fully agree with BeerFingers and are leaning towards All-Grain but are having enough trouble finding the time to brew partials and extracts let alone the extra time to do all grain. Lets not get into that debate though.

 

[Amber Fluid]

What a BS post from Beerfingers!!... he obviously knows this so why post something that is not helping him?


Pheonixdigital.... have you tried changing brand of cans?... I recently did a Tooheys that was crap but have found Coopers not too bad.

 

[phoenixdigital]

Phoenixdigital.... have you tried changing brand of cans?... I recently did a Tooheys that was crap but have found Coopers not too bad.

Yeah we have gone from Coopers -> Morgans -> Black Rock -> Muntons... tried em all.

 

[keifer33]

I really only use 3 cans when/if i brew with hopped extract and they are Coopers Mex Cerv, Canadian Blonde or the Aust Pale Ale. If I wanted a darker beer I will add some steeping grains/partial mash as some of the darker cans are quite twangy to my tastes. Still produce a good beer with the Canadian Blonde when I don't have enough time to do a full AG.

 

[petesbrew]

Yeah we have gone from Coopers -> Morgans -> Black Rock -> Muntons... tried em all.

So you've posted your methods which seem okay, but what about your ingredients?
And what style kits are you using?
IMO, I'd just use DLME, and forget all about adding dextrose. Save it for botlting.

Here's the link for steeping grain. It's easy enough if you've got a plunger.
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...;showarticle=80

If you're following recipe's on brands websites, don't expect them to taste exactly the same as intended.

 

[loikar]

Yeah we have put aside 7 bottles from each batch at another house as an "archive" so we can come back to it and taste it months later. If its too easily accessible we will no doubt drink it.

Some of our crappier beers tended to start tasting good towards the 2 month (in bottle) mark... but by then there are stuff all left.

We fully agree with BeerFingers and are leaning towards All-Grain but are having enough trouble finding the time to brew partials and extracts let alone the extra time to do all grain. Lets not get into that debate though.

Look, to be honest, I get the whole "Time" thing, and AG does take more time than Kit brewing, but It's like anything, if you put the effort in, you get the effort out and the results are well worth it.

If you're going to stick with extracts, I would suggest getting rid of the pre-bittered kits and go with all dry extract (IF you can't get un-bittered goop under about 60days old) as it tends to have a better shelf life, a small 60min boil and add your own hop additions. I would also look at steeping some crystal malts and using good yeast.

They key word is "Fresh" as with anything we consume, the fresher the better.
Don't compromise on temperature, fresh ingredients and sanitation and you'll come up with something that's a lot better than just a straight K&K. but I think you will find there will always be twang (even if a slight one) with most of your extract brews.

BF

 

[loikar]

What a BS post from Beerfingers!!... he obviously knows this so why post something that is not helping him?

*sigh*

There's always at least one....

 

[phoenixdigital]

So you've posted your methods which seem okay, but what about your ingredients?
And what style kits are you using?
IMO, I'd just use DLME, and forget all about adding dextrose. Save it for bottling.

Here is a link for all brews we have done and are doing to date. (uneditted for public consumption)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key...BESUZQenc#gid=0

We use a google docs spreadsheet so either of us can update it at any time.

We will definitely remove Dextrose from the equation and see if that makes a difference.

Here's the link for steeping grain. It's easy enough if you've got a plunger.
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...;showarticle=80

If you're following recipe's on brands websites, don't expect them to taste exactly the same as intended.

We are mainly following recipes from either our local homebrew shop or from experimentation.

 

[phoenixdigital]

If you're going to stick with extracts, I would suggest getting rid of the pre-bittered kits and go with all dry extract (IF you can't get un-bittered goop under about 60days old) as it tends to have a better shelf life, a small 60min boil and add your own hop additions. I would also look at steeping some crystal malts and using good yeast.

Absolutely planning on using only dry extract boil next time (no tin) with hop additions to see what difference it might make.

 

[manticle]

The small amount of dex you are using shouldn't be a problem. I'd keep it in if you move to all extract to help balance the mouthfeel unless you are finidg the current brews to thin/watery.

You might just be sensitive to the taste of extracts as you seem to be doing most things right.

For reference: a partial means some (part) of the fermentable sugar comes from mashing base malt. It seems like what you are doing instead is steeping specialty grain. Essentially a partial mash will take the same amount of time as a full mash/AG.

You can make decent beer with extracts and kits. Some people make award winning beer with it. You can also make shit beer with AG. I have (and I've tasted some rubbish by other brewers too) so it's not the holy grail. However if you are interested in making good beer and are interested in the process as much as the outcome then this may be the way to go for you. Stovetop BIAB and no/slow chilling could see you get a brew done in 3-4 hours and there's time in that 3-4 hours to do other things.

Best bet is to try fermenting a fresh wort kit (this way you will taste AG beer that you fermented yourself and see what you think of it and you should get an indication of whether there is something in your fermentation process that is causing your issue).

If you like the results, look at stovetop BIAB. There is a thread here about moving to all grain for under $30 and there is a also a sticky thread on stovetop brewing at homebrewtalk.com

Additionally, leave your brews alone while they condition and buy some coopers longnecks - you can re-use the bottles.

The only other thing I can suggest is storage of the fermenter at below 4 degrees for at least a week before bottling.

 

[loikar]

Absolutely planning on using only dry extract boil next time (no tin) with hop additions to see what difference it might make.

I think the best thing you guys have going for you is the experimental side, and having a shared spreadsheet and recording everything is brilliant! That kind of thing will pay off and provide you with a heap of your own reference material from your own experience.

There's a thread here http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=38674
Well worth a read. I'm not sure on the time frame it takes having never done such a small batch, but it will also be a good experiment for you guys.

The other thing is as manticle pointed out, a Fresh Wort Kit.
You can dilute these up to 22-23 Litres and away you go, but it does tend to take some of the fun out of it.

You're on the right track, it basically comes down to what you want to drink Vs what you are prepared to do to get it, and then finding a compromise you're happy with.

Good Luck!

BF