O2-ing my wort

[Chridech]

I use the oxygenation rates quoted in Chris White's and Jamil's Yeast book. The experiments White Labs performed showed that using pure 02 at a flow rate of 1L/min with a 0.5 micron stainless steel sintered stone, in a 1.077 SG 20L Wort at 24C, resulted in 9.2ppm for 60 secs and 14.08ppm for 120 seconds. I therefore inject pure o2 for 90 secs to get within the 10ppm ballpark. Works for me.

I'm fortunate to have access to medical grade O2, as I lease a cylinder and reg for my office. Can't see there would be any problem with industrial O2 cylinders, especially with a Hepa filter.

 

[Danscraftbeer]

HEPA filter. I need something to put on the (research and next addition) list.
As for my worries of a soap taste of my latest brew. After a week in the kegerater it seems to have gone! Its now the nice clean full flavoured beer its planned to be.

It wasn't the oxygen I'll conclude.
Its more likely a change of yeast, pressure fermented with late hop additions. All the (fumes) of your hops being captured in your beer instead of blowing off and lost. Ageing is the key to the nice perfect blend of your beer. Heavy hopped beer pressure ferment beer can be fumey when green.
Don't panic! Give it time. B)

 

[Mardoo]

There's something about soapy taste, hopping rate and pH I ran across recently. Let me see whether I can scare it up again.

 

[Mardoo]

OK, I couldn't find the original reference at the moment ( I know which HBT thread it's in, but it's over 4000 posts long). This sums it up though. Apparently high final pH can lead to soapy hop flavours. I've had it in many IPA's and very few other beers. Ignore the stuff from the first edition of How to Brew. It's been pretty clearly shown that leaving beer on the trub or lees for even two months isn't likely to lead to soapy off-flavors.

 

[MHB]

Mardoo - I don't agree, mind you if it was a cut and dried argument I doubt that thread would have gone on for 4000 posts.
There are several causes of soapy flavours, the most common is I believe "soap" not cleaning out all the remains of chemicals. There are also lots of other reasons (including lipids being extracted from trub) to get beer off OLD yeast and other trub material, that's very different to having some of the late settling yeast in contact with the beer during maturation, that can be beneficial - with in limits.
A little late sedimenting yeast being OK doesn't equate to all the trub being a good idea, any commercial brewer working in a CCV would have done 2-3 yeast drops before maturation, in a flat bottom tank the beer would have been racked at least once probably twice.
pH can be very important, high pH values can cause lots of problems, low pH has a number of benefits especially suppression of a lot of bugs and slowing yeast autolysis.
One reasons to rack is the formation of Protease A and the effects it has on head. Not important if you don't want head on your beer but that would be a minority of brewers. There is always a problem when we look at the effect of any one process/ingredient in isolation without considering the effect on the whole process and the beer we make.
Mark

 

[nosco]

Im having a bit of trouble sourcing a reg for these bottles. The conversion kit they had at Masters didn't fit their o2 bottles. They would only fit the same brand bottle as the reg which only had argon and another. Bunnings had a similar looking kit (it looked exactly the same but different brand) but they had no o2 in stock for me to test it out on. Reece plumbing (2 different stores) had the bottles but didn't seem to stock the regs. Maybe if I asked for a conversion kit? Im looking at one on eBay but it has a 10mm thread to go on the bottles. The ones they sell at Reece are 12mm so if I get the eBay one I might have trouble getting more bottles for it. I like the eBay one coz it has a gauge on it. It also looks the same as the bunnings and masters ones except with the gauge. Makes me think it might not fit other bottles i can buy at a hardware shop.

I can get a the brass ones that go on the Bernzomatic bottles at a decent price but the Bernzomatic bottles are only 40g. It seems a pretty pricey bit of kit as it is. Any one bought one recently that they didn't pay too much for?

 

[kaiserben]

I (and at least a few others, it seems) bought this and use it with the Tradeflame bottles from Bunnings. But another forum member warned against using something not made specifically for Oxygen, so use at your own risk.

On another note, the way I inject O2 into my wort wastes a lot of oxygen and I'm wondering if I need the oxygen flowing for as long as I do it for:

I store my stone and hose in no-rinse solution.
I start the flow of oxygen while it's still in the no-rinse.
I then move the stone/hose into the wort.
When done I leave the oxygen flowing, take the stone/hose and dunk it in a sink of tap water (to clean the wort off it) and then take the stone/hose back into some no-rinse solution for storage, and finally turn the oxygen flow off.
This way I don't need to boil it and it's always ready to use.

I read somewhere about not wanting to get wort inside the stone, but do I really need to have the O2 flowing for that whole time? How does everyone else do it?

 

[wereprawn]

Never used pure 02 myself but.....Is oxygenating the wort in place of a starter? If you've grown the correct amount of yeast, wouldn't you want it to metabolize anaerobically asap upon pitching into the wort , rather than continuing to multiply ?

 

[GalBrew]

I (and at least a few others, it seems) bought this and use it with the Tradeflame bottles from Bunnings. But another forum member warned against using something not made specifically for Oxygen, so use at your own risk.

On another note, the way I inject O2 into my wort wastes a lot of oxygen and I'm wondering if I need the oxygen flowing for as long as I do it for:

I store my stone and hose in no-rinse solution.
I start the flow of oxygen while it's still in the no-rinse.
I then move the stone/hose into the wort.
When done I leave the oxygen flowing, take the stone/hose and dunk it in a sink of tap water (to clean the wort off it) and then take the stone/hose back into some no-rinse solution for storage, and finally turn the oxygen flow off.
This way I don't need to boil it and it's always ready to use.

I read somewhere about not wanting to get wort inside the stone, but do I really need to have the O2 flowing for that whole time? How does everyone else do it?

I do it exactly the same way for the same reasons. I was also going through a lot of gas until I bought an oxygen flow meter off eBay. You can then keep the oxygen on but keep the flow to a minimum when transferring the stone. In general you will use a lot less oxygen when you can measure the flow.

 

[MHB]

Never used pure 02 myself but.....Is oxygenating the wort in place of a starter? If you've grown the correct amount of yeast, wouldn't you want it to metabolize anaerobically asap upon pitching into the wort , rather than continuing to multiply ?

Absolutely not!
While yeast is reproducing it is consuming Lipids and Protein from the wort, as well as the O2 we added and a bunch of other bits and pieces.
If you have the right sized starter (pitch) and the right amount of O2, in a well made wort it consumes all the stuff we don't want in the beer and the O2 at about the same time - the result is a large population of good healthy yeast that will not only ferment faster, will produce better beer and a much healthier more vital and viable yeast for repatching.

Change any one of the parameters (O2, Nutrients...) and the result is lower quality beer and less healthy yeast.
So no the O2 doesn't replace a starter and the idea that yeast should go off like a hand grenade is wrong.
Mark

 

[nosco]

Im getting the o2 setup fot lagers but when wouldnt you use it? I was thinking that people use it for lager wort and starters. I underpitched my first hefe as suggested in another post and i would have thought that using it for every ale would be a waiste of o2.

 

[manticle]

It's more obvious in a pale lager or big beer when you omit things and pitch less than sufficient healthy yeast but all beers benefit from a good quality pitch.

 

[SBOB]

is the bunnings 'Trade n Go' currently the most economical way to buy o2?

if so, what kind of regulator would fit it, anyone know?

 

[MHB]

Im getting the o2 setup fot lagers but when wouldnt you use it? I was thinking that people use it for lager wort and starters. I underpitched my first hefe as suggested in another post and i would have thought that using it for every ale would be a waiste of o2.

Again this is something of a misunderstanding. It is well known that if you pitch at the lower end of the recommended range a yeast will produce more flavor products, in the case of Hefeweizen more of the clove phenolic, banana and bubblegum that can make Hef so tasty.
That is very different to under-pitching, I and I suspect few home brewers are really pitching anywhere near the amount of yeast a commercial brewer would regard as adequate, to deliberately reduce the pitch rate further is not a good idea.

The right amount of O2 makes a big difference to your beer, this applies to all beers but the effect is more noticeable in some beers than others, same with yeast, there is a right amount and all the other amounts.
If you have O2 use it, only costs a little and can make all your beer taste better, the more so as we are all probably really under-pitching to start with.
I just wish good Dissolved O2 meters weren't so expensive.
Mark

 

[Blind Dog]

whilst proper oxygenation with pure O2 seems to be advocated by many whose knowledge of the subject indicates they know what they're talking about, I know at least 2 award winning breweries that do no such thing, and aerate via spraying or agitation. Both have been around for a fair while and use a house yeast, so maybe their yeast has adapted to less than ideal conditions?

Personally, I aerate with an air pump, and it's fine for most ales - maybe not ideal, but no obvious off flavours and do pretty well in comps etc. Lagers, less so. An O2 system is definitely on my wish list, just need to persaude SWMBO that it should be on hers as well (and please no 'it's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission'. She's Catalan; there's no word for forgiveness in Catalan)

 

[nosco]

I tried an air pump once but the air stone got blocked and it seems like alot of muckin about for something I could do with a paint stirrer and a drill. My lagers are a bit hit and miss so ill see how much o2 I use and then see about using it on ales.

 

[nosco]

is the bunnings 'Trade n Go' currently the most economical way to buy o2?

if so, what kind of regulator would fit it, anyone know?

I (and at least a few others, it seems) bought this and use it with the Tradeflame bottles from Bunnings. But another forum member warned against using something not made specifically for Oxygen, so use at your own risk.

I just ordered one of these SBOB so if it works ok Ill let you know.

 

[Coalminer]

Interesting article with regards to O2 regarding new dry yeast and re-pitched dry yeast

http://www.danstaryeast.com/articles/oxygen-requirements

 

[MHB]

Good read thanks
Mark

 

[kaiserben]

Never used pure 02 myself but.....Is oxygenating the wort in place of a starter? If you've grown the correct amount of yeast, wouldn't you want it to metabolize anaerobically asap upon pitching into the wort , rather than continuing to multiply ?

On top of what MHB said,

If you're building a starter you're basically doing exactly what you'd be doing if you were pitching into wort. Any time you pitch yeast some cells die off, most multiply, some go dormant and over time more will die, but initially you end up with many more cells than you started with. Therefore pitching into a proper batch of beer sees your yeast population multiply - and if you've looked at making starters you'll know there is a relationship between the # of cells you start with and the volume of wort, which determines how many cells you end up with.

So not only can you pitch the "correct" number of cells to begin with, but you can also create the best environment for them to multiply in as healthy a way as possible.