Not Getting Full Potential From Mash

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murrayr

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Hey all, first post
I've only been all grain brewing a few months but i'm already seeing a rather none too good pattern emerging. The gravity my beer is reaching is somewhat lower than what i work out it should be. The IPA I did yesterday had a grain bill that should have gotten the wort to a gravity of 1.075. when all was said and done it reached a mere 1.052...any suggestions?
 
A few Questions:
How did you crush the grain?
How fine was the crush?
What is your mashing procedure?
What is your sparging procedure?
What was your expected efficiency%?
What was your final efficiency?
 
wow, a lot of questions
the homebrew shop crushes it for me, so it can'y be that.
use a single temperature infusion at 65 degrees for 90 minutes.
sparging, i heat water to 70 and just pour it over the grains.
expected efficeincy is 75% and my actual efficeincy is only 53%
 
the homebrew shop crushes it for me, so it can'y be that.
Why not? Is your local HBS perfect?

sparging, i heat water to 70 and just pour it over the grains.
This isn't hot enough for a mash-out (flame suit: not that you *have* to do one) and hotter water might reduce viscosity more, allowing a better lauter. Exactly what are you doing for sparging? Allowing that hotter water to sit for a while, extract the remaining sugars, and let the grain bed settle a little? Running the wort straight back out? Sprinkling the water over the top as you run off the wort?

Are you measuring the final volume correctly, or going by (water in - water out)?

Lastly, how did you calculate the expected FG?
 
wow, a lot of questions
the homebrew shop crushes it for me, so it can'y be that.
use a single temperature infusion at 65 degrees for 90 minutes.
sparging, i heat water to 70 and just pour it over the grains.
expected efficeincy is 75% and my actual efficeincy is only 53%
Nothing too out of the ordinary there. I heat sparge water to 80C though, it will help strip some of the sugars out.
Do you batch sparge (mix the grain)? or Fly sparge (pour water over the grain bed at the same rate as it drains out the bottom)?
How many kg's of grain did you have? and How many L's in the fermenter?
 
Did you correct your OG for temperature to get to your mash efficiency?

Can make a big difference in your measurements.

For example: 1.052 at 55C = 1.065 at 20C.
 
Personally I would sparge with a higher temp whether it is fly or batch . Try and get your sparge temp a little higher like around 74-75* C this will help to wash the sugars from the grain a lot easier . Do you mash out with a higher temp ? If you batch sparge do you sparge until your gravity reading is around 1.008 - 1.010 from the mash tun ?


Brew Well
Beerbelly :D
 
This isn't hot enough for a mash-out (flame suit: not that you *have* to do one)

Flame on (only a tiny well mannered one). Mashouts could improve efficiency but is probably not going to be that dramatic in my modest experience.

My questions re efficiency are around how comfortable you are with the calibration of your mash tun thermometer and the volume measurements.

The former can have a marked effect real efficiency and the latter on the calculation of efficiency.
 
Flame on (only a tiny well mannered one). Mashouts could improve efficiency but is probably not going to be that dramatic in my modest experience.

My questions re efficiency are around how comfortable you are with the calibration of your mash tun thermometer and the volume measurements.

The former can have a marked effect real efficiency and the latter on the calculation of efficiency.
Also, mash out is mainly used to denature enzymes to ensure the size of the sugars you targeted in your mash remain the same size and are not broken down to smaller fermentable sugars. If the resultant beer continually finished at a lower SG and was dry on the finish I would start to target the mash out procedure.
The OP's issue could be as simple as wrong weight of grain supplied compared with recipe. I know when I was purchasing single batch, pre crushed grain from the HBS I never reweighed the grist. I always took it as being correct. 100g out will make a big difference.
 
murrayr,

I am also a recent convert to all grain and I had this problem with my first batch. I was fly sparging and I was draining my mash tun quickly and ended up way under target gravity. To rescue the batch I sparged some more and boiled for longer to reduce the volume and hit the target in the end.

After speaking to my LHBS, I sparged/drained my tun much slower (about 30 min for 30L pre-boil volume) and got around 74% efficiency- right on target. I hadn't seen anyone else sparging and I was surprised how slow the runoff was.

If you are that far under your target it might be something simple like this.

Alfie.

 
This might be a dumb question but how did you measure your OG? If you're using a hydrometer have you corrected your SG reading to the wort temperature?
 
just got back from work and am very grateful to see all of your advice.
i did adjust the hydrometer reading for temperature...that is i cooled a small amount and measured that.
i might have to try hotter water for a longer sparging time, and maybe more of it. thanks all for your advice, i'll put it to good use.
cheers
 
Hey Murray, try this (the SG converter on the bottom left) for converting SG depending on temperature. It's in F though ... but there's a converter in the top box. It's accurate.
 
Hey murray,

If you are batch sparging, make sure you mix well at end of sacch rest/mashout before the 1st lauter and very well again between the subsequent sparges. I find this alone helps bump up the eff quite abit. I can only assume the thorough stirring/mixup shakes any ecess sugars the grains mightbe holding onto. I guess its sort of like stirring up sugar in the bottom of a coffee cup.

If you just pour water on it, it doesnt completly dissolve. If you stirr it up, you dissovle it allot faster.

Cheers.
 
Hey murray,

If you are batch sparging, make sure you mix well at end of sacch rest/mashout before the 1st lauter and very well again between the subsequent sparges. I find this alone helps bump up the eff quite abit.

Conventional wisdom supports this approach - the idea being that the stirring helps release the trapped sugars from the grain matter and thus improve efficiency. Yet this approach is also a well known culprit behind cloudy beers. Stirring the mash is good, during the saccharification rest, to ensure a more complete conversion and to help knock out any dough-balls that may have inadvertantly been created during the dough-in stage.

For years I adopted this approach and had nice but always cloudy beers that needed either filtration or PVPP - which was a dead giveaway that I had tannin-protein haze issues caused by stirring during the mash, during mashout and in between batch sparges. The negatively charged PVPP silica gel bonded to the positively charged tannins that caused the tannin-protein haze thus brightening the beer and also quite importantly, not stripping the protein levels out of the beer that help foam and head retention in the glass. Isinglass finings were useless because the positively charged isinglass didn't bond with the +ve tannins and whilst they did help flocc out the cloudy yeast strains, the finings did jack all to the chill haze in the beer.

And then I recently bought a copper sparge ring for the 10 Gallon mashtun;

sparge_ring001.jpg


Straight away, I managed to gain at least 10% extraction efficiency and routinely brew at 80% - without stirring at all...For the first couple of batches, I used the ring and stirred the mash between batches during the sparge and whilst I did gain efficiency, I still had cloudy issues...so I made a conscious decision to do a couple of brews (light and dark beers) and not stir at all after the mash had concluded. Result? No loss of efficiency and very bright beer!

I dough-in and stir well to eliminate dough-ball formation. At the end of the mash, I add my first batch of sparge water via the ring (note the holes are topside on the copper ring so I'm not ramming water down into the grainbed) at mashout temps - the ring just sits on top of the grainbed. I vorlauf then drain without stirring yet keeping the sparge water at least 2 inches above the grainbed, stop the sparge, add more hot sparge water for the second batch - still no stirring because I have a great filter bed now and I don't want to disturb it and I have no channelling since the sparge liquor is always above the untouched grainbed surface - drain the mashtun (knowing your sparge volumes is important here because you don't want to oversparge the mash and pull tons of tannins into the brew kettle) and start the boil.

So, my experience is that yes, you can gain efficiency by regularly stirring the mash, but I get much brighter beers (and still have excellent conversion efficiency) by trying not to trash my grainbed filter through stirring in between batches - the key is to keep at least a couple of inches of sparge water above the grainbed throughout the sparge.

I've also been able to do a "mashout single batch sparge" - where I add the entire volume of the sparge to the mashtun, wait 5 mins, vorlauf, and just let the mashtun drain in one go - having a 10 Gallon mashtun helps!!

Cheers,
TL
 
Conventional wisdom supports this approach - the idea being that the stirring helps release the trapped sugars from the grain matter and thus improve efficiency. Yet this approach is also a well known culprit behind cloudy beers. Stirring the mash is good, during the saccharification rest, to ensure a more complete conversion and to help knock out any dough-balls that may have inadvertantly been created during the dough-in stage.

So, my experience is that yes, you can gain efficiency by regularly stirring the mash, but I get much brighter beers (and still have excellent conversion efficiency) by trying not to trash my grainbed filter through stirring in between batches - the key is to keep at least a couple of inches of sparge water above the grainbed throughout the sparge.

Wow, informative post there TL!

Funnily enough i have only just began to experience that my recent beers have had chill haze since adopting a filter. Funny thing is some beers ive had that are naturally conditioned and dropped bright have not had chill haze. Is this something that can dissipate over time? E.g. The tannins and excess proteins drop out of suspension?

Maybe ive had chill haze all along but only really noticing it recently due to the filter (thinking it was just yeast). Also, yep is its chill haze as when it warms its diamond bright. Thankfully my beers do not have a gawd aweful astringency.

Maybe i am being excessive TL, do you think if i just give a casual stir between batches im better off? I find the grainbed tends to slope away some times after the 1st sparge (around the drain hole area or around the edges).

Cheers!
 
Maybe i am being excessive TL, do you think if i just give a casual stir between batches im better off? I find the grainbed tends to slope away some times after the 1st sparge (around the drain hole area or around the edges).

Cheers!

If you find that your grainbed is being affected by the sparge to the extent you've described, then yes, I would give it a stir - perhaps only stirring the first few inches down and try to avoid stirring up the bottom of the grainbed - my mash is quite deep and the sparge ring has its holes on the upper side of the copper pipe which keeps the mash pretty much flat.

Water is lazy and will find the quickest / most direct route and in your case, you need to keep the mash under water and undisturbed as much as possible so that you effectively try to minimise the extraction of tannins out of the mash - thanks to an effective filtration mechanism in your grainbed. Palmer is quite right in suggesting that mashtun geometry is important if you want to consistently have good extraction efficiency - noting of course that it's not necessary to have 100% efficiency in order to make great beer!

Are you using a false bottom / screen in your mashtun?

Cheers,
TL
 
Are you using a false bottom / screen in your mashtun?

Cheers,
TL

Just a stainless braid coiled into a circle in the center of a Rubbermaid cooler. It doesnt happen all the time, but it notice it on say every 3rd beer.

I also slowly drain during my batch sparge process to try and reduce the channeling down the side of the tun.
 
TL makes some interesting points -

But you need to be a little careful about terminology.

If you batch sparge and dont stir up the mash - then you aren't really batch sparging, you are flood sparging. I dont give a hoot about what you call it, but it means you have to pay attention to and do some different things.

In a batch sparge, you stir up the grains in order to homogenise the mash - all the sugars etc get spread evenly throughout the mash, and all you need to do is drain them out leaving behind the solid portion. So, channeling, speed of run-off, mash tun geometry etc etc. They don't mean a thing at all. Now whether you believe that that makes for good quality wort or not is a differnt matter - I do, TL doesn't.. beside the point I am trying to make.

BUT

If you add you sparge water and don't stir - then you are flood sparging, which is a variation of fly sparging and has a lot in common with it. You don't have a homogenous mash, so you need to be aware of mash tun geometry and channeling, because you need the water to infuse through the mash evenly to get at all the sugars. And run-off rate is important too. All the same stuff as with fly sparging.

You just need to be aware that by not stirring the mash in a batch sparge - you are suddenly in a whole other world. You follow the basic sort of "Denny Conn" routine for a batch sparge.. but you just leave out the stirring part. And what you will have is the worst of both worlds. You wont get the good things TL is talking about, and you will get lousy efficiency.

So by all means take TL's advice - but make sure you take all of it and dont just latch onto the "don't stir" part of it.

Sorry for being an anal *******, but I have seen so many bugger ups just because people used the wrong words to describe what they do or think someone should be doing. I have an uncontrollable urge to clarify...

TB
 
So far I've helped 4 members of my club get their efficiencies up from the 50's to the 70-80's simply by suggesting they develop and stick to a water budget. For instance, the total water you should use can be calculated as follows:

1. Start with your finished wort volume into the fermenter, eg 20l.
2. Add the amount of wort left in the kettle due to hops/trub/waste, eg 1l.
3. Add the amount lost to evaporation during the boil. This will depend on your batch size, kettle, heat source etc. Assume for the sake of argument that it's 5l.
4. Add the amount lost to the grain in your mash. I lose about 1.5l per kg. For 5kg total grain, you'd lose 7.5l.

In this example, you'd need 33.5l water total. If you're using more than this it can really impact your anticipated efficiency.

Another thing that I've noticed is that my efficiency drops when doing higher gravity beers. I get 85-90% for brews with an OG of about 1.060 or less and it drops to about 70-75% for beers with an OG of 1.100.
 

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