Noob Question : Using Ice To Cool Wort.

[jupiter]

hoi hoi, my first post to the forum. i just bottled my first brew tonight, and got my second going in the process. i have read that it is best to cool the wort to fermentation temperature as quick as possible, and now i have prepared two extract worts, the time taken for it to naturally cool to the point of adding yeast is an hour or two.

i have been thinking, since extract brewing is pretty much using warm water to disolve and mix the extracts, is there any problem mixing up a slightly concentrated wort with warm water then adding ice to cool / dilute it to the proper concentration in the right time / manner, rather than mixing it up and cooling it buy submersing the tub in cold water? (like the brewing instructions i got say)

i tried searching for "ice" but got so many responses about rice i thought i'd post a new topic.

cheers :beer:

 

[Adamt]

Welcome to the forum!

The reading you may have done about cooling the wort to pitching temperature is probably with regards to a boiled wort.

By no means is extract brewing just "mixing with warm water to dissolve", thats called a "dump and stir". Extract brewing can involve complex extract ingredients that are boiled with hop additions. It is very important to cool the wort after it has dropped below boiling point, as anything foreign contacting the wort can cause rapid infection (high temperature = fast infection, but not high enough to kill the infection). There are many methods of doing this however I don't think you are up to this yet

Not sure where you got those instructions from, but the standard dump and stir instructions are something along the lines of:
-Add x litres of boiling water
-Add can and kilo (or other ingredients)
-Top up with cold/warm water to get required volume and temperature.

If you are not boiling the wort you shouldn't need to cool it; just add cold water instead of the warm! Sure you could add ice, but make sure you've made the ice with your own water, you never know what's in that crappy commercial ice, any small baddie in there = screwed batch!

-Adam

 

[jupiter]

yeah, i'm only "dump and stir" as you said at this point. the instructions i have say (in short) "pour the extracts from the tin into the bucket with a few litres of hot water, then top up with cold". i end up with the thermometer reading 36-38degC so it takes time for the temperature to drop before adding yeast. i've read this can be bad, so i thought maybe adding some ice after the "dump and stir" maybe good?

cheers.

 

[Kai]

By all means, use ice. If you use tap water in your brews, then just freeze the same water and use that. If you use filtered or pre-boiled water, then freeze that.

 

[wobbly]

jupiter

Have you considered chilling say half (10lt) of your top up water in the fridge over night in a sanitised water container one of those you buy water from the supermart in

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[Snow]

Adamt,

I think you're being a little alarmist, there. When Jupiter is up to doing extract/partial mash boils, then it will be fine for him to use commercial ice to rapidly cool the wort. I have used ice to cool boiled wort for the last 3 years (around 70 brews) and have never had an infection ruin my brew. Having said that, I would suggest that if using commercial ice, then standard precautions should be used, such as sanitising the edge of the bag that may come in contact with the ice as you're pouring it out, use a towel to dry the condensation off the outside bag before you pour, so it doesn't drip into the wort, sanitise the stirring spoon, etc.

Alternatively, after topping up your hot wort with cold water, just put the fermenter in a fridge and pitch your yeast the next day when it reaches the correct temp. If you've been careful with your sanitation, you won't have a problem.

Cheers - Snow

 

[Steve]

Welcome to AHB Jupiter.
Yep - always use 2 or 3 blocks of ice (old chinese food containers) to help chill the wort.
Cheers
Steve

 

[benno1973]

Hey Jupiter,

A lot of books (for some reason) say DEFINITELY don't add ice to the wort to cool it, but I've done it for years and never had a problem. My method was to sterilise 2 or 3 chinese takeaway containers with bleach, fill them with water and stick them in the freezer overnight, ready for brew day...

 

[Hutch]

..."pour the extracts from the tin into the bucket with a few litres of hot water, then top up with cold". i end up with the thermometer reading 36-38degC ...

Hi jupiter, and congrats on your first brew! :beer:

I'd just like to back up a bit and question how you ended up with 36 - 38 deg from "a few" Litres boiling water, and ~18 Ltrs cold tap water??? Being August, tap water should be quite cold in Perth, I presume (certainly is in Melbourne!). Given the above ratio's of hot to cold water, you should be able to acheive something in the mid 20's, at least at this time of year. Indeed using ice blocks is a great way to get your wort down to pitching temp quickly, however I hope we can offer a simpler solution than that for now.

Just how much hot/cold water did you use, and how cold was your tap water?

Hutch.

 

[Fents]

Instead of adding ice why not just add less hot water at the start.

In summer i use about 1 or 2 litres max of boiled water to dissolve my kits and stuff in the fermenter and fill the rest up with cold water...temp comes up to about 25c..

In winter as the air is colder i can use 4 Litres of boiled water and the rest cold and brings the temp to around the same...

You could even use 1 litre of boiling water to dissolve and the rest cold...

 

[jupiter]

Just how much hot/cold water did you use, and how cold was your tap water?

i'm not sure of the temperature of the tap water, but i'm guessing maybe 15-18 degC. i basically emptied the two tins of (heated) extract into the bucket, filled each tin a couple of times with hot water to get the remainder of the extracts out (60-70degC?) which bought it up to about the 6-7 litre mark on the bucket. filled the remainder with normal tap water.

ok, i just measured the temperature of the tap water here at work, 21.3 degC. i measure my home tap water when i get there this evening.

cheers all for the replies.

 

[dirty mac]

hoi hoi, my first post to the forum. i just bottled my first brew tonight, and got my second going in the process. i have read that it is best to cool the wort to fermentation temperature as quick as possible, and now i have prepared two extract worts, the time taken for it to naturally cool to the point of adding yeast is an hour or two.

i have been thinking, since extract brewing is pretty much using warm water to disolve and mix the extracts, is there any problem mixing up a slightly concentrated wort with warm water then adding ice to cool / dilute it to the proper concentration in the right time / manner, rather than mixing it up and cooling it buy submersing the tub in cold water? (like the brewing instructions i got say)

i tried searching for "ice" but got so many responses about rice i thought i'd post a new topic.

cheers :beer:

You don't want to risk it with commercial ice-I know for a fact that they shovel alot of that ice off the ground. As what a lot of people have said, make your own ice blocks. I'm kinda lucky as I've got a big fridge and freezer totally dedicated to beer. I mix up the wort, malt, etc in a food grade bucket first with boiling water from the kettle then put in freezer and stir frequently until right temp. I also have on hand a 10L water container that sits in the fridge ready for brew day.

I'm telling you now if you are going to brew from now until ever, the fridge is a brewers best friend. Its nearly impossible to brew a lager at the right temp unless you have a reliable cooling facility.

 

[Fingerlickin_B]

Tip the goop into the fermenter, then fill each can (assuming you are using two) about 2/3 full with boiled water, sit for a minute and stir with a spoon.

Then pour them into the fermenter and stir it up before adding cold water.

That'll keep those temps down :beer:

PZ.

 

[RobboMC]

I pre-cool a few 2 litre cordial bottles of water to fridge temperature ( 4-5 deg C) In summer I need about 6 or 7 x 2l bottles, in winter it's less because the tap water is cooler. Cooled water is sufficient for dump and stir. However, when you get to more interesting brews containing some boiled hops and liquid malts you are always introducing more heat into the fermenter. I found it much easier to make Coopers Sparkling Ale with a litre or 2 of ice in the wort. Make sure the ice all melts before going to far with cooled water as it's easy to undershoot on the temperature.

Now all my brews get about 2 litres of ice and 6-8 litres of pre-cooled water. This brings 23 litres out at about 19 deg C. Use a sanitised container WITH A TIGHT SEALING LID. Tupperware is the best. Don't use open ice trays and don't risk commercial ice to go IN the wort.

My first brew came out at 31 deg C, so don't feel bad, you have earned something important. Ale brewed at 19 deg C is a really nice drop.

 

[jupiter]

ok, i just measured the temperature of the tap water here at work, 21.3 degC. i measure my home tap water when i get there this evening.

just measured the tap water at home = 15.9degC. colder than work.

 

[Sammus]

For my first about 10 brews (as a kit n kilo) soaked the tin in warm tap water, emptied it in the fermentor, filled up the can about 2/3 with boiled water, stirred and empty into bucket, then top with a hose to about 20L, if the side of the fermenter felt warm I chucked in a bunch of ice (open ice trays) and bit more cold, then pitched when the ice melted, probably ended up about 20-30C, never measured, never had an infection. One of my earlier ones I didn't realised I was making a lager clone (boags premium) and the warm temp made it taste like rotten eggs, apart from that they were all winners, considering the whole 10mins I put into it

 

[Brewtus]

I own an ice maker type fridge and even though it makes ice from filtered tap water I still don't trust it enough so I dump the ice in the sink just after I take the wort (read goop, sugar, hops etc) off the stove.

As I boil it in an 8 litre SS pot I dump that in the ice with the plug in the sink and top the sink (not the wort) up with cold water. I stir the wort (using a clean brew spoon that has stired the wort) and move the pot around in the sink until the ice has all melted. I put the pot on a clean tea towel to dry the outside and then tip it all into the frementer. I then top up the fermenter with cold water from the tap via the pot. This aerates the wort.
When I get to the level of my thermometer sticker about 3/4 of the way up I wait until the temp settles and then, as it is usually about 24 deg, I add tepid water until the tide mark (23ltr - the former owner did this to it - great idea) I then get the OG and pitch. Never had a problem yet.

The first time I brewed I did not cool the wort enough and it took ages to get the temp down. The kids started walking though the kitchen, let the budgie out etc. It was a nightmare trying to keep it away from beasties until it was cool.

I am sure every brewer does something different but it is an art not a factory regime.