No Chill + Ag = High Ibu

[MeLoveBeer]

I've just cracked open the first two of my AG brews and I'm absolutely shattered; despite me following recipes for Dr Smurto's Golden Ale and Tony's Little Creatures Bright Ale clone to the letter, they have massively high IBU's and are practically undrinkable.

The one thing that I can think of that would be contributing to the bitterness is the fact that I no-chilled, but I wouldn't have thought it'd make that much difference?? What are you thoughts? Is there anything I can do to rescue these brews?

 

[QldKev]

yep, we have not had this discussion for a while....

If it's "practically undrinkable" it is NOT a no-chill issue...

QldKev

 

[whitegoose]

I've just cracked open the first two of my AG brews and I'm absolutely shattered; despite me following recipes for Dr Smurto's Golden Ale and Tony's Little Creatures Bright Ale clone to the letter, they have massively high IBU's and are practically undrinkable.

The one thing that I can think of that would be contributing to the bitterness is the fact that I no-chilled, but I wouldn't have thought it'd make that much difference?? What are you thoughts? Is there anything I can do to rescue these brews?

I've recently cracked a keg of my first ever no-chilled AG and it is definitely more bitter than expected. Since then I've read all kinds of theories about how many IBUs no-chilling adds on and methods to combat it.

For my next no chill I'm definitely shifting all my hop additions by 5 minutes (eg. my 60 minute addition becomes 55 minutes, my @20 becomes @15)

Interested to hear what others have to say on the subject!

 

[ampy]

I have knocked out both of those recipes BIAB no-chill.
Both delicious!

 

[manticle]

yep, we have not had this discussion for a while....

If it's "practically undrinkable" it is NOT a no-chill issue...

QldKev

Agreed. Something else might be going on. How long have they been bottled/kegged by the way?

 

[jyo]

Mate, I have also brewed both of these recipes with no chill and they have been delicious. What kind of bitterness levels are you used to in commercial examples?
You may need to look at compensating by shifting your hopping schedule to allow for extra bittering at flameout, if it is the problem. I count all flameout additions as at least 20 minute additions. Nothing scientic about it, I'm not looking at any isomerisation charts etc, it just works for me. Also interested in how fresh they are?
Cheers John.

Edit- more betterer diction

 

[brando]

I've recently cracked a keg of my first ever no-chilled AG and it is definitely more bitter than expected. Since then I've read all kinds of theories about how many IBUs no-chilling adds on and methods to combat it.

For my next no chill I'm definitely shifting all my hop additions by 5 minutes (eg. my 60 minute addition becomes 55 minutes, my @20 becomes @15)

Interested to hear what others have to say on the subject!

Why not just keep the 60 min addition, but reduce the weight of hops added?

I'm not sure that 5 mins is enough of a shift - I'd go 10 mins at least (eg. @20 becomes @10 or even @5).

 

[bjay]

I have also done dr smurtos exactly to the recipe and no chilled and its all gone
It was one of the best ive done,,,,, Must be something else goin on

bjay

 

[QldKev]

A bit more detail.

In my opinion no-chill adds maybe 2 to max 5 IBU. 2 IBU is indistinguishable by the average person, myself included. If a particular recipe is already border line bitterness for your taste then you may pick up on a few IBU, but it is not going to be a major shift. At 60min additions the difference will be absolutely minimal.

In late hopping you can pick up on the difference in flavor and aroma and I would recommend looking at shifting some numbers here; but that is not what you describe.

To "have massively high IBU's and are practically undrinkable." I would be looking else where. My first though would be astringency. What temp did you mash out at, and how finely did you crush?

To quote http://www.thefreedictionary.com/astringency "Sharp and penetrating; pungent or severe"


QldKev

 

[Tony]

I no chill and also chill beers. I find the no chilled beers using lots of late hops end up over bittered. I now only no chill beers that dont have lots of late hops.

I also find that no chilling kills off some of the late hop brightness compared to snap chilled beers.

When you say undrinkable...... do you mean yuck or just too bitter?

 

[MeLoveBeer]

If it's "practically undrinkable" it is NOT a no-chill issue...

That's what I wanted to hear... I've read in other threads about the increase in bitterness, but this is off the charts bitter and definately not what I expected

Agreed. Something else might be going on. How long have they been bottled/kegged by the way?

Dr Smurto's Golden has been in the bottles for around a month while the LC Bright Ale clone has been in bottles for 3 weeks. I realise that there would be improvement to be had by leaving the beers longer (and I intend to give them every chance), but think tasting them now is still a fair indicator.

What kind of bitterness levels are you used to in commercial examples?

I frequently drink LC Bright Ale (and have a six pack currently in the fridge) and do drink and enjoy bitter styles of beer.

Also interested in how fresh they are?

Do you mean the hops? I couldn't tell you the packaging date for the pellets, but they were ordered from G&G and used within a week of buying them.

In my opinion no-chill adds maybe 2 to max 5 IBU. 2 IBU is indistinguishable by the average person, myself included. If a particular recipe is already border line bitterness for your taste then you may pick up on a few IBU, but it is not going to be a major shift. At 60min additions the difference will be absolutely minimal.

In late hopping you can pick up on the difference in flavor and aroma and I would recommend looking at shifting some numbers here; but that is not what you describe.

To "have massively high IBU's and are practically undrinkable." I would be looking else where. My first though would be astringency. What temp did you mash out at, and how finely did you crush?

Umm... for the GA, mash in temp was 67 degrees and mash out was 75. The BA had a mash in of 67 and no mash out. For both brews I fly sparged with 75 degree water.

To quote http://www.thefreedictionary.com/astringency "Sharp and penetrating; pungent or severe"

QldKev

I'd say that its Sharp and penetrating.

When you say undrinkable...... do you mean yuck or just too bitter?

The flavours of both beers shine through quite nicely, but the bitterness is massively overpowering.

Its worth noting that the GA is far less bitter than the BA which leads me to think it might be the dry hopped additions rather than the boil additions.

 

[seemax]

My remedy was simple, become a hophead and brew IPA's

I'm drinking a BIAB golden ale as I type - 32IBUs in Beersmith including a 50g @ 10min Amarillo addition and 20g dry hop - it's smooth and tasty, no harshness at all.

Sounds like you have an issue somewhere else... can you describe the taste?

 

[Tony]

did you dry hop the BA or the GA?

I never dry hop the BA.......... it shouldn't need it and i generally dislike the character that dry hopping gives. Its a kind of tart, harsh grassy hoppiness.

 

[MeLoveBeer]

I dry hopped both...

17g of Cascade and 17g of saaz into the BA for 5 days in the primary

15g of Amarillo into the GA for 5 days in the primiary

Would the additions be better at flame out rather than dry hopped? I've currently got an Irish red fermenting that doesn't have any dry hop additions (and was no-chilled), so should be able to rule it out within the week.

 

[Barley Belly]

My first ever AG was a no chill DrS GA IBU's according to Beersmith were supposed to be around 30 and it was was fairly bitter but started to mellow around 6 months in the bottle.

I'm up to AG No20 now and have refined my recipes to suit my setup and method.

75min boils
1st hop edition @ 40min to around 20-22 IBU
2nd @ 75min then whirlpool for 20mins
3rd @ 15min (whirlpool) for 5min
Drain to cube

(2nd and 3rd additions not normally high alpha hops, if so I reduce qty)

This probably isn't everyone's cup of tea but I love the beer it produces :icon_drool2:

 

[manticle]

Hop bitterness will fade/integrate with time. Have you tried letting someone with an experienced palate taste it?

Kev might be onto something with the astringency.

I no chill a lot of my beers but wouldn't no chill a beer that was heavy on late hop additions without at least adjusting (and as I don't really know what I'm doing with the adjusting I would just chill).

 

[MeLoveBeer]

Hop bitterness will fade/integrate with time. Have you tried letting someone with an experienced palate taste it?

Kev might be onto something with the astringency.

I no chill a lot of my beers but wouldn't no chill a beer that was heavy on late hop additions without at least adjusting (and as I don't really know what I'm doing with the adjusting I would just chill).

I'm hoping to go along to Melbourne Brewers meeting for the first time on Wed night and to bring along a bottle of each (I can assure you 1 bottle of each will be enough, because no one will drink it). I'm sure its something simple I've missed (at least I hope it is).

 

[manticle]

I'm hoping to go along to Melbourne Brewers meeting for the first time on Wed night and to bring along a bottle of each

Best bet.

 

[Tony]

Saaz or B saaz?

they are 2 very differnt hops.

my advice.......... dont dry hop.

A good brewer recently said something to me that rung true when discussing dry hopping.

"Dry hopping is for people that cant get what they want from the kettle"

IMO.... no chilling kills the late hops and dry hopping to make up for it will just create a harsh beer. Get a copper coil!

 

[manticle]

You're far more experienced than me Tony but to my mind dry hopping and late hopping in the kettle are designed for slightly different things (and give different results).

I have had grassiness from dry hopping and also have dry hopped inappropriately which has been awful but I think it is a legitimate technique used by some very successful commercial breweries.

Two of my current faves - Orval and Young's special london ale both dry hop. It can be delicious. I just think it's not to be relied upon as a band-aid situation to fix a bad beer.