Nice vs harsh bitterness

[roverfj1200]

Manticle... Wicked reply... I feel I know so much more now,,, And I will make better beers for it.. Thanks.



Cheeers

 

[Fat Bastard]

A good rule is the higher the Co-Humulone the harsher the bitterness, the best bittering hops are low in Co-Humulone. Some good examples are warrior around 24% and magnum, one of the worst is Galaxy 35% :huh:

Edit, please excuse the speedy type font!!

I'm a massive fan of Warrior as a bittering hop in big IIPA's. My current Red IIPA calculates at 106IBU, but is very smooth and tastes like much less. I've got a Motueka/Pacifica pale ale that calculates at around 35IBU, which tastes much harsher, and seems more bitter than it actually is, even after you take into account the difference in style. To my palate, it seems not much less bitter than the big IIPA.

When I had the Red IIPA up around the 125IBU mark, people would comment on how smooth it was, and express large amounts of surprise when I showed them the Brewmate file.

 

[hoppy2B]

Did anyone mention the role different yeast strains play in determining the level of bitterness?

 

[mabrungard]

The use of high alpha hops for the main bittering charge is a good way to reduce the mass of hops in the kettle. Beyond that, making sure that the kettle wort pH is less than 5.5 is another good measure. If harshness continues to be a problem, further reducing the kettle wort pH may help. Be aware that hop utilization and hop expression is affected by reduced wort pH, so you may not want to overdo it.

 

[Fat Bastard]

The use of high alpha hops for the main bittering charge is a good way to reduce the mass of hops in the kettle. Beyond that, making sure that the kettle wort pH is less than 5.5 is another good measure. If harshness continues to be a problem, further reducing the kettle wort pH may help. Be aware that hop utilization and hop expression is affected by reduced wort pH, so you may not want to overdo it.

In your opinion, what is the best way to do this?
With my pale beers, I can't seem to get the pH into the right range according to the EZ water spreadsheet (tested with strips) but it's not a drama with the darker beers like the Red IIPA.

I've been looking to getting some 88% Lactic Acid or acidulated malt to compensate, but not sure which way to go here.

 

[manticle]

Try either. Too much will affect flavour but with the right starting water and the right dose of calcium you should be able to add just enough to do the job without tasting it.

 

[Fat Bastard]

Thanks manticle. With Sydney water, I'm only looking at small additions to get me into the correct range, according to the spreadsheet and the (coloured) test strips that were recommended by the tame analytical chemist at work.

I suspect this may be key to getting my pale beers tasting right. I've been mucking about with water chemistry for a while now, but can't seem to get my paler brews in the right pH range with Calcium Chloride, Calcium Sulphate and MgSo4 alone. Coincidentally, I'm far more pleased by my darker beers' flavour.

 

[manticle]

Drop the MgSO4. Use acid and the two calcium salts, style dependent.

Is your water chloraminated?

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

I find some commercial IPA/APA (given I stopped brewing for over 6 months, I had to purchase) are thin in body, and tend to have a fairly harsh bitterness. Aroma is often lacking as well.

Yet they often (when stated or someone has 'got the recipe') use hop varieties that I don't have this issue with.

I can't get any figures on the water here (cradle mountain water is the authority), so I can't pontificate about that. So far my water here seems a little more minerally but less 'chlorine tasting' than Brisbane, but again, no data to support.

I've been eagerly watching this from the sidelines, and have nothing to offer except a crappy anecdote, that maybe (hopefully) someone with the knowledge (like manticle) can offer more thoughts on or at least it can operate as a bump.

Loved mant's post too - learned a helluva lot.

 

[pcmfisher]

I agree with the type of hop and boil time as harsh bitterness determinants.

I have done many single hop extract brews to the same bitterness around 30 IBU with different hops and boil times.

Galaxy 60 mins = Harsh

Citra 60 mins = Much smoother

Citra 30mins to same IBU = Harsher than Citra 60 min.

 

[Nick JD]

I like harsh bitterness in some beers. It's grassiness I can not stand.

 

[Dave70]

I like harsh bitterness in some beers. It's grassiness I can not stand.

I've got a little from both column A & B when dry hopping with Amarillo in an APA. The grassiness faded over time, but it remained harsh till the last drop.

But in the last wheat / pale with one 60 min and one flame out addition there was none, it's fruitilicious, and with no dark malts or crystal to hide behind.


The wheat incidentally was no chill.
Just sayin.

 

[Parks]

I've got a little from both column A & B when dry hopping with Amarillo in an APA. The grassiness faded over time, but it remained harsh till the last drop.

But in the last wheat / pale with one 60 min and one flame out addition there was none, it's fruitilicious, and with no dark malts or crystal to hide behind.


The wheat incidentally was no chill.
Just sayin.

Quick Q - how long did you dry hop for? My findings and heaps of reading lately suggest 2 days max for most so I would be interested to know what time you did which gave you perceived grassiness.

 

[Maxt]

Manticle, I had never heard about the late hop/ harshness due to lack of boil time...I just know that I have always struggled to tame galaxy. Food for thought

 

[manticle]

Like I say, it was just something I read. I have also read however that an extended hopped boil (from memory longer than 3 hours) and wort will actually reduce in bitterness.
First was from Fix (Principles of brewing science) second from allen & cantwell (barley wine).

I'd be interested in exploring further. When I do a 2 or 3 hour boil I don't add hops till 60 mins left.

 

[Mardoo]

I'm very interested in the relationship between late hopping and bitterness. There must be some pretty complex interactions between the various alpha acids during isomerization that wouldn't come into play as much with "hop bursting".

I've never seen anything mentioned about late hopping and bitterness as related to the greater levels of oils remaining. Many plant "essential" oils are exceedingly bitter if concentrated, if not most. Could those be contributing to harsh bitterness in late hopping? This is pure speculation on my part.

Manticle, thanks, as always, for your great posts.

 

[Fat Bastard]

Drop the MgSO4. Use acid and the two calcium salts, style dependent.

Is your water chloraminated?

Sydney water has no chloramine as far as I know. Why would you drop the MgSO4? The spreadsheet says it should be in a certain range, and small amounts get it within that range. Lots of stuff I do when brewing I am yet to understand fully!

 

[manticle]

All grain brewing provides enough magnesium. Unless you are brewing high adjunct beers, you will have enough. Magnesium does what calcium does but less effectively so you are better off using calcium salts than magnesium salts.

Too much magnesium makes beer taste odd, way too much makes you **** your pants.
In short - there's enough there already, extra is not super effective, too much is bad

 

[Dan2]

All grain brewing provides enough magnesium.

Any idea how much? This is something the water calculators don't do.
EZwater says ideal range of 10-30ppm, and punching MgSO4 into it changes the profile readout, but adding grains doesn't change anything but pH

 

[durgarth]

Fantastic discussion. From my own experimentation (from lots of reading)I have found a lot of the harsh acid bitterness can be "smoothed" out if a percentage of the hops are added in the mash. So for example the 20 minute additions are added to the mash (at least double the quantity) the result is a smooth balanced rounded product. If the same amount was added in the boil the result is harsher, more astringent and certainly more bitter.

I await more input from those more experienced.