Nice Easy Transition To Partial - Apa

[zagadka]

I'm currently gathering gear to move from kits and bits to partials.

So far I've been doing kits with dry malts and < 500g of steeped grain for colour and mouth feel/body. I've sort of applied that here with the cara... I'm not sure whether it's necessary here (any pointers?).

How does this recipe look for a simple partial to kick off? (This is a dump out of Beersmith)

1.50 kg Coopers Malt Extract - Light (8.0 SRM) Extract 35.71 %
2.50 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 59.52 %
0.10 kg Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 2.38 %
0.10 kg Caramunich Malt (56.0 SRM) Grain 2.38 %
30.00 gm Cascade [5.50 %] (60 min) Hops 17.6 IBU
20.00 gm Cascade [5.50 %] (35 min) Hops 9.7 IBU
20.00 gm Cascade [5.50 %] (10 min) Hops 4.3 IBU
20.00 gm Cascade [5.50 %] (0 min) Hops - << Flameout
20.00 gm Cascade [5.50 %] (0 min) Hops - << Dry, Secondary.
1 Pkgs Safale US-05 - Slurry (Reuse) 600ml Starter

Other stuff (summarised):
Single infusion mash @67 deg, mash out at 75 deg. 60 min boil, whole lot.
Beersmith says: 1.051 OG, 31.6 IBU, 7.3 SRM

Cheers.

 

[buttersd70]

Your doing a full volume boil? If you have the equipment to boil full volume, is there a reason why you're doing it as a partial? Often partials are done as an intermediate step on the way to AG because it's the size of the boil vessel that's the limiting factor....

 

[manticle]

Also you can still learn the process of mashing and if your miss your target it's not as big an issue. I use the same pots I used for my partials now but partial was a major learning process in the step to AG and was more than just equipment limitations.

 

[zagadka]

Your doing a full volume boil? If you have the equipment to boil full volume, is there a reason why you're doing it as a partial? Often partials are done as an intermediate step on the way to AG because it's the size of the boil vessel that's the limiting factor....

*slaps forehead* -- That's right. I'll have to leave the extract out won't I? I have a 20L pot... I would probably only squeeze a 15L boil, 15L sits about 40mm off the lip of the pot.

 

[marksfish]

no probs do your mini-mash in your 20 litre pot biab style follow your hop additions as per recipe add extract ten minutes before end of the boil to sanitize. easy-peasy! imo apa are great for partials as the hop flavor covers any extract twang.

 

[buttersd70]

*slaps forehead* -- That's right. I'll have to leave the extract out won't I? I have a 20L pot... I would probably only squeeze a 15L boil, 15L sits about 40mm off the lip of the pot.

Ah, 20lt pot. OK. pita for full size AG, then, perfect for partial.

Yeah, leave the extract out. In beersmith, double click on it, tick 'add after boil' (and I'd recommend changing the name of the extract to include 'post boil' or similar, cos you wouldn't be the first to mean to leave it out, and then on the day put it in without thinking ), and adjust your 60 min addition to account for the change in utilisation.

as for your q about carapils.....at >50% grain, you shouldn't need it for head retention. But it doesn't hurt, so why not? It's only a small amount anyway, and it (apparantly - I don't use it, so I'm taking other peoples word for this) has a mild and pleasant flavour as a light crystal anyway.

Only other suggestion I'd make would be to move the 35 min addition to 20 min. imo, 35 min is ineffective as a bittering addition, and as a flavour addition. Other than that, it looks fairly simple, reasonably balanced. Although some might say to increase the bitterness....I wouldn't personally, but hopheads would be fairly insistant on it... :lol:

 

[RdeVjun]

Hi Tim,
honestly mate, there's no hassle doing a full- sized batch with a 20 litre pot, I do it all the time. Dilution and sometimes hops utilisation are the only things different, but if you BIAB, just be sure to sparge large.
Good on you for having a chop!

 

[zagadka]

I reckon BIAB is the way to go, and probably the best for this transition.

I pulled down the BIAB profiles for Beersmith from here, I'm using the same medium body temps and a mash out with a 3:1 water:grain.

I will have to do more research re: sparging in BIAB is it necessary? - Maybe 2-5L once the bag has drained for a bit?

Ingredients:

   ------------

   Amount	   Item									  Type		 % or IBU	 

   1.50 kg	  Post Boil - Coopers Malt Extract - Light (Extract	  35.71 %	  

   2.50 kg	  Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM)		  Grain		59.52 %	  

   0.10 kg	  Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM)			  Grain		2.38 %	   

   0.10 kg	  Caramunich Malt (56.0 SRM)				Grain		2.38 %	   

   30.00 gm	 Cascade [5.50 %]  (60 min)				Hops		 21.3 IBU	 

   20.00 gm	 Cascade [5.50 %]  (Dry Hop 7 days)		Hops		  -		   

   20.00 gm	 Cascade [5.50 %]  (20 min)				Hops		 8.6 IBU	  

   20.00 gm	 Cascade [5.50 %]  (10 min)				Hops		 5.2 IBU	  

   20.00 gm	 Cascade [5.50 %]  (0 min)				 Hops		  -		   

   1 Pkgs	   Safale US-56 (US-05) - Slurry

Cheers and thanks for the replies.

 

[RdeVjun]

Yes Tim, BIABing is pretty easy and a very cheap way to try out all grain brewing, particularly considering you've already got a stockpot. You can get into full- batch AG for just the want of the BIAB bag, usually less than $10, so to try it out you're very nearly set up already! You can also back out of it without taking a massive cost hit if you then find it isn't really for you.

Sounds like you've got the idea though, FYI with my BIABs, for sparging a full batch of about 3.5kg I use about 5 or 6 litres of water just off the boil. After you've mashed in the pot, lift the bag, twist to drain most of the first runnings, but there's no need to drain it completely. Then pop it into a bucket or another stockpot which has the hot sparge water already in it, open the bag up and stir it thoroughly, let it sit for 15-20 minutes with a few more stirs. Then lift it out and twist, suspend it to drain completely, a potplant hanger on a cupboard handle is handy for this, but there's lots of different ways. The second runnings/ mashout/ sparge usually has an SG of 1/3 to 1/2 of the first, so can really improve your efficiency dramatically and I'm surprised many BIABers don't do this (or even make a 'small beer' with it!). If you measure the SG of both, you'll confirm it.

While full- sized batches (i.e. 23 litres into the fermenter) with 3.5kg of grain can be done like this, it won't hurt at all though to aim for a smaller batch while you try the method out, that's what I did initially. With your recipe being a partial this is what you're pretty much doing anyway, so I'd actually continue just like it is.

With water to grain ratios, this will probably be more use later but it'll give you a feel for it- with a full 3.5kg batch, I use about 4-5 litres of water per kilo of grain initially, so around 15 litres, usually yields about 10 or 11 litres of first run, SG ~1.065, the sparge has much less absorption as its already saturated so it gives about 5 litres of ~1.035 and I'll dilute all this up to 17 or 18 litres for the boil. You could use these volumes with that smaller grain bill, I don't think it would be any problem, oh and I mash for 90 minutes, 66-68 normally.
Now, I'll often boil with the lid mostly on to minimise evaporation, but there's a few schools of thought about that. Regardless though, hops utilisation will take a hit, so be prepared to increase the rates by 10 or even 15%, I usually end up at 10%, here's a chart. I'd add the malt extract right at the end the boil as well, perhaps bring it back up to the boil to sanitise and then chill/ NC cube.
After cooling, the wort will need diluton, so measure the SG to work out by how much, and its pretty simple to do this. A recent example of mine that was headed into a 21 litre fermenter:
Target SG: 1.046 Actual SG: 1.062 Actual Volume: 15 litres
Therefore 62 / 46 * 15 = 20.2 and (so roughly) 20 - 15 = 5 litres of plain water to be added to achive the target SG and volume, it can be a bit rough and ready, but usually works for me.
Good luck, let us know how it goes! :beer:
Ps. Sorry about the essay...

 

[zagadka]

Ps. Sorry about the essay...

Hey, essays are good! Cheers, that's great info!

 

[zagadka]

G'day All - A bit of a followup.

My BIAB partial worked out really well. Thanks for your input.

I ended up going for a thin mash on some advice - It will help balance out the sweetness of the extract. So I mashed 65 degrees with 5:1 water:grain. Then I sparged with just under 5L.

The mash went well. I doughed in at 68 degrees and ended up with a nice 65.8125 (Thanks Beersmith!). About 30 mins in I started losing some heat after I stirred the mash up a bit - about 3 degrees over the last half hour. The Iodine test was negative for starch so I sparged and started the boil. The pre-boil and fermenter hydrometer samples were damn nice. :icon_drool2: The boil ended up going about 90 minutes because I was having difficulty maintaining a rolling boil, the BBQ just doesn't have the guts. I had to put the lid on to get it going...


Does anyone have any recommendations to reduce the amount of crud in the bottom of the boil - or at least get it out of suspension so you don't siphon so much of it?


Pulley Setup


Some Splices - This worked really well. I decided on an eye splice at the bag end of the rope. I turn the eye splice inside out to form a loop on its self, I can then wrap that around the bag, just below where the drawstring bunches up. It's nice and easy to undo and hook up.


Wrapped up pot. Temp probe hanging out the bottom.


Closeup - Eye splice in action.


Suspended Bag.


Iodine Test - No change in colour.


Start of the boil - Temp probe in place.


Pre-Boil sample, 1030.


Crud being filtered out on the way into the fermenter.



Cheers
:icon_cheers:

 

[manticle]

Does anyone have any recommendations to reduce the amount of crud in the bottom of the boil - or at least get it out of suspension so you don't siphon so much of it?

Whirfloc and whirlpooling.

Whirfloc or irish moss is a seaweed fining added 10 or so minutes before the end of the boil. As the wort chills the crud forms together. It's then easy enough to leave behind, even if you pour through a strainer as I do.

Whirlpooling is not something I do at the moment but I have watched it being done. Basically while the wort is still hot (probably around 90 degrees though I can't remember exactly why), you stir (without splashing) the wort into a whirlpool which helps drop it out of suspension, especially if used with irish moss. I think this method works best if you have a tap on your kettle which is why it's not a method I've really explored yet.

 

[avaneyk]

...I have watched it being done. Basically while the wort is still hot (probably around 90 degrees though I can't remember exactly why)...

You want to do it while the wort is hot so you don't need to sanitise your spoon but not so hot that there are convection currents within the pot that will prevent to floc from settling in the middle of your pot - or at least that's what I've read... so above 70C should be ok for sanitation but probably best below 90C

 

[Screwtop]

as for your q about carapils.....at >50% grain, you shouldn't need it for head retention. But it doesn't hurt, so why not?

Bit late now but I'm with Butters on this. Extract can be low in fermentability leaving body in the beer so no need to be adding body in the form of Carapils. As for Carapils adding head retention, IMO it's one of those "fine tuning a ferrari" type results. Maybe use it to add a little body and very light crystal profile in a very pale beer, maybe a lager/Pils.

Cheers,

Screwy

 

[reviled]

Bit late now but I'm with Butters on this. Extract can be low in fermentability leaving body in the beer so no need to be adding body in the form of Carapils. As for Carapils adding head retention, IMO it's one of those "fine tuning a ferrari" type results. Maybe use it to add a little body and very light crystal profile in a very pale beer, maybe a lager/Pils.

Cheers,

Screwy

Carapils is great in an APA/IPA, I use it in all of my US pale ales, and most of the Americans do as well! Plus its only 100gms, its not gonna hurt!

 

[joshuahardie]

Does anyone have any recommendations to reduce the amount of crud in the bottom of the boil - or at least get it out of suspension so you don't siphon so much of it?

I have a smaller second bag that I run the wort through to filter out as much break / hop matter at possible.

I don't know if this a cardinal sin or not, but it is how I have always done it.