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jkmeldrum

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Hi guys

I've just recently set up my new kegerator (which I've attached a photo of). I'm new to kegging, but I've read a bit about it and force carbing etc, but I'm just having probs getting it just right. I'm using a brand new micromatic reg through a 4 way regulator then line from keg to tap is 1.5m.

I did try force carbing on the first day that I put the beer into the keg, but wasn't quite sure if it worked properly (I have a feeling my temp was a bit high, around 4 degrees), so I let it sit for a day and set the reg to about 1.4 bar for serving pressure as I'd read, but the beer even after about 4 days was not carbed enough and it was too foamy and was pouring very fast.

After speaking to someone else, they've said it was possibly over pressure causing my issues. So I have since lowered temp in the kegerator and it sits between 2 and 2.5degrees, I've vented the kegs and lowered the serving pressure to about .6 bar on the reg. The beer is pouring at a much better flow rate now but I'm just wondering if those experienced in this reckon that sounds about right?

I'll let it sit for another 48 hrs before trying it again and see how it goes.

Is there an order of adjustments that I should start with? For example, should I set temp, then pressure, then beer line length?

Also, I have noticed that after I set the serving pressure on the reg, I can come back later and it has changed, usually goes up, is that normal or do I have a leak or something?

Cheers

Molly

IMG_0586.JPG

Sorry about photo... for some reason it keeps rotating it no matter how I change it at my end.
 
Hi Molly,

not sure about pressures to be exact, (i know where mine sits on the regulator but keep forgetting if its in kpa, bar or psi.....) but the first thing that came to mind when reading your post is "why do you think 4 degrees is too high?" That's pretty cold.

The 2-2.5degrees you mention later, is that the temp of the beer your aiming at? That's very cold serving temp. I have my keezer set at 3 degrees and i'm thinking about putting it up a degree or two.

Without giving it too much thought, it does remind me of my early kegging days when i overcarbed a lot.....now i have my process down pretty much bang on every time. Just takes some practice.

Someone else will be along soon no doubt with some technical info.

Cheers,

Nath
 
there's a spreadsheet about balancing your system, to me it appears your beer line length is too short and pressure too low.

I know it's hard but if you stay away from force carbing for till you understanding your system as it's very common first mistake to over carb :)
 
as Nath said 4 deg is fine mine is set at 4 deg. I would be saying its over carbed, 1.4 bar is about 140Kpa and I run mine at 85Kpa so its way higher then you should be running it. This is why it would of come out fast and foaming.

All I can say is to balance your system never use a force carbed keg. Also you say that you come back after setting the pressure and the reg goes up? to me this sounds like there is more pressure in the kegs (over carbed) then the pressure that the reg is set to so when you turn it down the kegs are pushing pressure back into the reg forcing the gauge to go up.

I hope you have a non return valve as if you dont and the beer is over or close to the air dip tube and the pressure of the keg is higher then the pressure the reg is set at the keg pressure will force beer up the air line and into your regulator and tank, This is a major and costly exercise if it does happen so run a non return valve. One valve on each airline going to the kegs is a good idea so they cant cross over from keg to keg (I only have one before the splitter but want to upgrade later on)

I would set the reg to about .8 bar and then try to poor a beer and see if its better if not then the you can disconnect the air in and rock the kegs and burp every time you walk past and connect after a few times and try again. For your beer line length that sounds about right mine is 1.4m but think its 5mm line
 
Thanks guys, I've got a bit from all of those replies. I don't have flow controllers on my taps so I'll have to tweak everything else.

I only partially forced carbed the first keg, but the second is just sitting there slowly absorbing. I have lowered the serving pressure and will see how it goes by tomorrow and then just make some minor adjustments and try to balance the system. I will get some more beer line and try it with a longer line and see if that helps too.

Cheers

Molly
 
kelbygreen said:
as Nath said 4 deg is fine mine is set at 4 deg. I would be saying its over carbed, 1.4 bar is about 140Kpa and I run mine at 85Kpa so its way higher then you should be running it. This is why it would of come out fast and foaming.

All I can say is to balance your system never use a force carbed keg. Also you say that you come back after setting the pressure and the reg goes up? to me this sounds like there is more pressure in the kegs (over carbed) then the pressure that the reg is set to so when you turn it down the kegs are pushing pressure back into the reg forcing the gauge to go up.

I hope you have a non return valve as if you dont and the beer is over or close to the air dip tube and the pressure of the keg is higher then the pressure the reg is set at the keg pressure will force beer up the air line and into your regulator and tank, This is a major and costly exercise if it does happen so run a non return valve. One valve on each airline going to the kegs is a good idea so they cant cross over from keg to keg (I only have one before the splitter but want to upgrade later on)

I would set the reg to about .8 bar and then try to poor a beer and see if its better if not then the you can disconnect the air in and rock the kegs and burp every time you walk past and connect after a few times and try again. For your beer line length that sounds about right mine is 1.4m but think its 5mm line
Click to expand...
Thanks for that....that's pretty much what I'm trying to do now, so I'll give it a try and wait and try again! BTW there is not return valves in the manifold, but I might get one more to sit between the manifold and the reg.

Cheers
 
mxd said:
there's a spreadsheet about balancing your system, to me it appears your beer line length is too short and pressure too low.

I know it's hard but if you stay away from force carbing for till you understanding your system as it's very common first mistake to over carb :)
Click to expand...
Yeah, I just got a bit excited and wanted to have the beer serving for this weekend when mates arrive! But the second keg is just slowly coming up to serving pressure.

Cheers
 
Molly said:
I just tried that spreadsheet with serving temp of 4 degrees and 2.5 carbonation, tap .5m above centre of keg and 5/16 line for the john guest line I'm using and it's telling me I need to set reg at .8 bar (that's fine) but I need between 16 and 18m of beer line....surely that can't be right?
Click to expand...


By no means an expert, but have recently started using my kegerator.

No science employed, just what I have guaged from ready some posts on here about similar subject.

I run my Keezer @ 5 deg.
Made my ID 5mm lines 3m each and slapped it all together. 70-100kpa on the dial and she poors lovely.

First half glass of the day is foamy (been sitting in the lines etc). After that good as gold.
I normally poor pints if that helps.

Cheers
D80.
 
maybe it means 1.6-1.8m?? I sure as hell know that no one uses that much beer line I use 1.4m lol

edit: I see you put 5/16 line so you have 8mm ID line??? that could be why its so long. you sure you dont mean 3/16" which is 5mm??
 
Molly said:
I just tried that spreadsheet with serving temp of 4 degrees and 2.5 carbonation, tap .5m above centre of keg and 5/16 line for the john guest line I'm using and it's telling me I need to set reg at .8 bar (that's fine) but I need between 16 and 18m of beer line....surely that can't be right?
Click to expand...


no that's not right, you'll need 2 to 2.5 mtrs and about .8 bar.

I think there's a bug in the spread sheet, try a different size line diameter (e.g 5mm)
 
Nice setup mate.

Unfortunately there's a lot of misinformation out there about balancing a draught system and a lot of people talk about factors that are less important or not even applicable.

It's actually REALLY simple to balance a draught system. The following assumes you have a single regulator so only one pressure available to you.

1 - Work out what your beer temperature in the keg will be. For people new to this you can just use what your temperature controller for the freezer is set at.
2 - Work out how many volumes of co2 you want in your beer. This will depend on your own personal preferences and the suggested volumes of co2 of the beer styles you serve at.

Quick break: If anyone has given you ANY advice on balancing a system without first getting this information off you, ignore any advice from them in the future.

In my bar I have my temperature set at 4 degrees celcius, and I have decided on 2.2 volumes of co2. The reason I went with 2.2 is I find it a happy midpoint for most styles I like. If you look on the spreadsheet mentioned above you can see the ranges of typical styles.

So, plug 4 degrees celcius and 2.2 volumes into that spreadsheet and you come up with 60kpa or 0.6 bar.

This is the regulator pressure that will over enough time ensure that your keg is perfectly carbonated at 2.2 volumes of co2 as long as it's sitting at 4 degrees.

You want your serving pressure to also be 60kpa. This means that you don't have to adjust your regulator all the time and worry about beer being over carbed or under carbed etc due to the pressure being too high or too low at different points. In your setup you should be able to go with 60kpa nicely.

Now here's something not everyone tells you about line length, it's not that important. It's no where near as important as the things I've talked about so far. Basically line length works as follows.

Line too short: The beer will come out too quickly, which means it's really hard to pour a beer and not have a massive head on it. If you have a really cold and clean glass and have a really pouring skills maybe this won't be a problem for you, but it will be for others that use your bar. But do you see what I've done here? I've introduced other variables that no one talks about. The main thing to worry about is if it's too fast FOR YOU. If it's too fast, you need to make your lines longer or use other techniques to reduce the flow.

Line too long: The beer will come out too slow. What are the drawbacks of this? Well the immediate ones aren't that big a deal. It'll take longer for the beer to get in the glass! And you'll probably have to manufacture a head on the beer by swirling the glass around or only half opening the tap or whatever. If you're patient that can be a good thing. However the real drawback is if your lines are too long when you haven't poured a beer in a while the beer in the lines will start to separate with the co2 coming out of the beer and forming big co2 bubbles in the line and the taps. This will make the tap 'fart' out gas when you pour your first beer of the session. It may make the first beer have the right head but the next beer have no head at all, which is confusing.

Line just right: The beer comes out at just the right speed. If you pour two beers in a row, both should have the same amount of head. The tap shouldn't "fart" too much when you first pull it because there shouldn't be too much of a build up of co2 in the taps / lines.

So with line length the issues aren't that big a deal and using the above descriptions you should be able to know fairly easily whether you need to lengthen or shorten the lines. In your case I'd probably recommend 2 metres of 5mm ID line per tap as a starting point and you may end up wanting to cut them back further depending on your own circumstances.

FORCE CARBING
You can sit your keg on the regulator and over a week or two it will carb to your desired level by itself. I recommend doing this at least once so that you know what it "should" be like. It's a good reference point.

However you can speed things up using the Ross method (search for it, easy to find).

I recommend cutting back on the Ross method a bit when you first start out, so that your keg is only 80% carbed. Then leave it on the gas for a few days and it'll be 100% carbed. It's a way of speeding things up without risking over carbing.
 
the spread sheet is right he said he put 5/16 line (8mm ID) and for my setup that gives me about 17m but if I put it to 3/16 (5mm ID) it gives me 1.13m and if its 1/4 (6mm ID) 4.3m
 
kelbygreen said:
the spread sheet is right he said he put 5/16 line (8mm ID) and for my setup that gives me about 17m but if I put it to 3/16 (5mm ID) it gives me 1.13m and if its 1/4 (6mm ID) 4.3m
Click to expand...

sorry, then he probably put his OD in not the ID, as the JG fittings etc.. look like mine :)
 
Mark^******* said:
Nice setup mate.

Unfortunately there's a lot of misinformation out there about balancing a draught system and a lot of people talk about factors that are less important or not even applicable.

It's actually REALLY simple to balance a draught system. The following assumes you have a single regulator so only one pressure available to you.

1 - Work out what your beer temperature in the keg will be. For people new to this you can just use what your temperature controller for the freezer is set at.
2 - Work out how many volumes of co2 you want in your beer. This will depend on your own personal preferences and the suggested volumes of co2 of the beer styles you serve at.

Quick break: If anyone has given you ANY advice on balancing a system without first getting this information off you, ignore any advice from them in the future.

In my bar I have my temperature set at 4 degrees celcius, and I have decided on 2.2 volumes of co2. The reason I went with 2.2 is I find it a happy midpoint for most styles I like. If you look on the spreadsheet mentioned above you can see the ranges of typical styles.

So, plug 4 degrees celcius and 2.2 volumes into that spreadsheet and you come up with 60kpa or 0.6 bar.

This is the regulator pressure that will over enough time ensure that your keg is perfectly carbonated at 2.2 volumes of co2 as long as it's sitting at 4 degrees.

You want your serving pressure to also be 60kpa. This means that you don't have to adjust your regulator all the time and worry about beer being over carbed or under carbed etc due to the pressure being too high or too low at different points. In your setup you should be able to go with 60kpa nicely.

Now here's something not everyone tells you about line length, it's not that important. It's no where near as important as the things I've talked about so far. Basically line length works as follows.

Line too short: The beer will come out too quickly, which means it's really hard to pour a beer and not have a massive head on it. If you have a really cold and clean glass and have a really pouring skills maybe this won't be a problem for you, but it will be for others that use your bar. But do you see what I've done here? I've introduced other variables that no one talks about. The main thing to worry about is if it's too fast FOR YOU. If it's too fast, you need to make your lines longer or use other techniques to reduce the flow.

Line too long: The beer will come out too slow. What are the drawbacks of this? Well the immediate ones aren't that big a deal. It'll take longer for the beer to get in the glass! And you'll probably have to manufacture a head on the beer by swirling the glass around or only half opening the tap or whatever. If you're patient that can be a good thing. However the real drawback is if your lines are too long when you haven't poured a beer in a while the beer in the lines will start to separate with the co2 coming out of the beer and forming big co2 bubbles in the line and the taps. This will make the tap 'fart' out gas when you pour your first beer of the session. It may make the first beer have the right head but the next beer have no head at all, which is confusing.

Line just right: The beer comes out at just the right speed. If you pour two beers in a row, both should have the same amount of head. The tap shouldn't "fart" too much when you first pull it because there shouldn't be too much of a build up of co2 in the taps / lines.

So with line length the issues aren't that big a deal and using the above descriptions you should be able to know fairly easily whether you need to lengthen or shorten the lines. In your case I'd probably recommend 2 metres of 5mm ID line per tap as a starting point and you may end up wanting to cut them back further depending on your own circumstances.

FORCE CARBING
You can sit your keg on the regulator and over a week or two it will carb to your desired level by itself. I recommend doing this at least once so that you know what it "should" be like. It's a good reference point.

However you can speed things up using the Ross method (search for it, easy to find).

I recommend cutting back on the Ross method a bit when you first start out, so that your keg is only 80% carbed. Then leave it on the gas for a few days and it'll be 100% carbed. It's a way of speeding things up without risking over carbing.
Click to expand...

Thanks MB for your thorough reply.

I think I've got my head around it all now. I think what's happened is I put a Screwy's Red Ale on first and partially force carbed it, but then I think I overcharged it over the next few days by having the reg up too high. I've since filled a keg with a wheat beer and it seems to be pouring better after only a few days than the SRA. I think that this one has now been overcarbed and I need to perhaps disconnect it, bring it back to room temp and burp it a few times and start again. It has too much foam and is not gassy enough....maybe gas is releasing in the form of foamy head and coming out of suspension in the beer? I don't know! But I'll leave it as you suggested at .6 Bar as this is where it has been all afternoon and just let it come up to carbonation for a few days then maybe just fine tune with the beer line length.

Thanks

Molly
 

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