New Method For A.g Brewing - Tea Urn.

[Mitcho89]

Hi guys,

I just had a brain wave... I'm about to get in and try the BIAB method for making my first batch of all-grain. I'm rather strict when it comes to temperature control so I thought about using my fridgemate Mashmaster in combination with a coffee/tea dispensing urn. I'd just stick a collinder in the urn to keep the grain bag off the element but it would be nice to just set into the Fridgemate '66C' or '75C'. It would just take out the 'human error' variable. All I'd have to is just set my timer for my alarm for the different stages of the brew and that's it.

Just a thought

 

[bum]

Uh...that research has already been done for you, mate. Pretty popular BIAB device.

I understand it is recommended that you still do the mash with the element turned off. Something to do with the heat not being even and having an unreliable mash temp? Some sciencey brewer will be along with the exact reasons, I imagine.

NOTE: I am not arguing against the concept of a direct fired mash - only that I've read that this gear in this context is not the best application of the process.

 

[Mitcho89]

Well there you go. Good minds think alike with that said, sorry to bring up something old. I had a look and I didn't see much around for it at all.

 

[benno1973]

There's a good thread here by BribieG. He talks about raising the bag clear of the urn when applying heat to allow you to stir and distribute the heat evenly. Having said that, the discussion is more along the lines of maintaining a single mash temp, rather than doing step mashes, but I guess the same sort of principle could be applied.

I can't see that your suggestion would be too much different to a direct fired tun. You just need a good method to mix the water into the grain when heating.

 

[argon]

sorry to bring up something old. I had a look and I didn't see much around for it at all.

No problem mate... here's a good tutorial to have a read of for more info for Using An Urn For Brew In A Bag by a very experienced and well awarded brewer.
:icon_cheers:

edit: well beaten

 

[Mitcho89]

Wow that's a good setup. Urns of that size are by no means cheap so I think I'll stick to BIAB with a bloody big cook pot. With BIAB, can you sparge it by letting the temperature go from 66 up to 75 after the initial 90min to extract everything? Sorry I'm still working in my head the right way to do it before I get in and do it.

Thanks and kind regards.

 

[argon]

Wow that's a good setup. Urns of that size are by no means cheap so I think I'll stick to BIAB with a bloody big cook pot. With BIAB, can you sparge it by letting the temperature go from 66 up to 75 after the initial 90min to extract everything? Sorry I'm still working in my head the right way to do it before I get in and do it.

Thanks and kind regards.

What you've described here is a mashout and is a good simple method for extracting a little bit more out of the grain.

Pull the bag out away from the element, heat it up to 75-76C drop the bag in and give it a big stir, check temp again to make sure yo're at 75-76. Cover and sit for 10mins.

If you want to sparge do it in another bucket and dunk the bag in it. There are other methods too. Have a read of A Guide to Mini-BIAB for doing some overgravity full batch brewing too... plenty of good info in there.

Edit: spl mahout now mashout

 

[pk.sax]

sparging is literally rinsing Mitch. With hot water.

What I did yesterday to do it was, took the bag out and put it into a smaller pot. Opened the bag up on the top and poured 80C water over it (no insulation at this point, its gonna lose heat). Basically, dunked it a few times like a giant teabag in the pot to get the juice flowing, then closed the bag and squeezed as much as possible out. 3 times over (1.5 litres to 3 Kg of grain) and I ended up extracting way more than I intended. Tasted the grain after and it was not sweet so guesstimating, it worked.

edit: Argon beat me to it.

 

[beerdrinkingbob]

Wow that's a good setup. Urns of that size are by no means cheap so I think I'll stick to BIAB with a bloody big cook pot. With BIAB, can you sparge it by letting the temperature go from 66 up to 75 after the initial 90min to extract everything? Sorry I'm still working in my head the right way to do it before I get in and do it.

Thanks and kind regards.

Hey Mitch,

Are you talking about raising the temp of the mash tun or another vessel?.

If it's your mash tun you would be actually doing what they call a mash out not a sparge. A sparge is where you add additional water normally around 75 to 78 to extract more sugar from the grain that weren't recovered from your first runnings or for BIAB first squeeze of the bag :beerbang:

There are a lot of detailed discussion around mash out and sparging, I'll see if i can find a couple of links for you.

Hope that helps and hopefully and i was on the right track.

Bob

 

[beerdrinkingbob]

to slow as always!! hope you got you info :icon_cheers:

 

[Bribie G]

I regularly do step mashes and a mashout with an urn and BIAB. A skyhook helps, just raise and heat, then lower and pump the mash to distribute the heat. I haven't kept good records, unfortunately, but what I should (and will) do is to accurately measure how much time it takes a 2400 w urn to raise the temp in degrees per minute and I'll publish a table of schedules for the popular mash regimes such as simple mash out, hochkurz mash etc etc

To the OP, if you already have big pots, burners etc then an urn can be a big additional outlay. However for around $250 if you are starting out from scratch then it's a good option to get a 'turnkey' brewery out of the box with only a bag required.

As far as maintaining a constant mash temp goes, then I find that just some heavy lagging (sleeping bag, quilt etc) keeps the temp within a degree and a half, but a halfway raise, heat and stir isn't hard if you are a stickler for constant temp.

 

[argon]

I regularly do step mashes and a mashout with an urn and BIAB. A skyhook helps, just raise and heat, then lower and pump the mash to distribute the heat. I haven't kept good records, unfortunately, but what I should (and will) do is to accurately measure how much time it takes a 2400 w urn to raise the temp in degrees per minute and I'll publish a table of schedules for the popular mash regimes such as simple mash out, hochkurz mash etc etc

To the OP, if you already have big pots, burners etc then an urn can be a big additional outlay. However for around $250 if you are starting out from scratch then it's a good option to get a 'turnkey' brewery out of the box with only a bag required.

As far as maintaining a constant mash temp goes, then I find that just some heavy lagging (sleeping bag, quilt etc) keeps the temp within a degree and a half, but a halfway raise, heat and stir isn't hard if you are a stickler for constant temp.

C'mon Bribie... you really should suggest a couple of second hand ski jackets are pretty good for lagging too :lol:

 

[Silo Ted]

What you've described here is a mahout

An elephant jockey ?

I am also set up with an urn, but I ramp the temp up o mashout with the grain still in the water, but I stir constantly.

 

[Bribie G]

I'm tempted to possibly sacrifice a square of voile I found in a cupboard the other week and just do a mash with it clothespegged to the top of the urn and try a mashout by heating and stirring and see if it actually does melt the bag. Might be a time saver. The other plan is to try a stepped mash by progressive boiling liquor additions as I have a second urn now, starting thick and work up to full volume. Always something interesting going on with BIAB

 

[pk.sax]

I'm tempted to possibly sacrifice a square of voile I found in a cupboard the other week and just do a mash with it clothespegged to the top of the urn and try a mashout by heating and stirring and see if it actually does melt the bag. Might be a time saver. The other plan is to try a stepped mash by progressive boiling liquor additions as I have a second urn now, starting thick and work up to full volume. Always something interesting going on with BIAB

What! You are thinking of using the second urn as a HLT! Shame on you bribie, whats next, transfer mashed wort back to the second urn for a boil, recirculation over the bag?! a 2v brewery

lol, btw, cotton voile ftw! direct stove burner fired to (tried to mash out), stirred etc.. no bag bursts or burnt bag yet in two tries

 

[Silo Ted]

a cake rack over the element avoids any burns. done it dozens of times and still using the same bag, no indication of burning/melting.

 

[argon]

FWIW, I always used a cake rack on the bottom of the mash tun with the bag sitting on it and direct fired with a rambo burner. Never lifted the bag, but always stirred when applying heat. The swiss voile bag is in mint condition after 20+ brews.

 

[Mitcho89]

Right I think I'm getting it now. As far as extracting/rinsing goes, what's the difference between a mash out and a sparge? Don't both extract as much as possible?

 

[zebba]

Right I think I'm getting it now. As far as extracting/rinsing goes, what's the difference between a mash out and a sparge? Don't both extract as much as possible?

Mash out is raising the temperature of the mash to make it more runny so the fluid that is in there drains out easier. (amongst other things).

Sparge is running (see note) fresh water through the mash after you've drained off the liquid that was in there during the mash. This extracts more sugar from the grain.

Look at it this way - you have a grain, and it has sugar in it. You get some water (i.e. the mash) and sugar from the grain will leech out into the water until there is the same concentration of sugar in the water as is left in the grain. Drain that water away and add fesh water, and you'll get more sugar out - it won't be as strong as the first lot of water, but there.

If you are doing a "full volume" BIAB, then there isn't much point in doing a sparge - you may get a little more efficiency, but it probably isn't worth the time effort. If you have limited gear and can't do a full-volume BIAB mash, then sparging will let you do a larger batch size than you could doing the more traditional no-sparge BIAB

Note: just rinsing the grain under a tap won't get much out - you need to give it some time so the sugar leeches out of the grain into the water.

Double note: this is a very simplistic explanation. There is obviously more. The important point is that a mash out and a sparge are two VERY different things.

 

[matr]

a cake rack over the element avoids any burns. done it dozens of times and still using the same bag, no indication of burning/melting.

Or make yourself one of these. SS won't burn - ever!