New Ag Brewer - Oxidation On Transfer To Secondary ?

[Goose]

Lads,

AM relatively new to AG, done around 8 brews so far but each finished brew one has had a distinct flavour that I just cant describe adequately. Its far more evident in the smell of the brew than its taste. Some hombrewers that have tasted it say a hint of banana ester, one bloke I gave it to that had never tried homebrew before said it smelled/tasted like a "vanilla" hint... either way I find it highly undesirable. It has been a common feature to all my brews whether they be ales or lagers. At first I thought it was temperature but even brewing lagers at 11 deg C did not solve the problem. Adjusting the pH of the mash to 5.5 has not done the trick either.

What I have noticed is that the taste does not seem to be present in the beer run from the primary,but when I come to bottling from the secondary the smell is there in force.... so I am wondering if something is happening during the transfer to secondary or in the secondary thats causing me this buggeration... what I do is add 75 g dextrose to boiled water into the base of the fermenter and then rack the beer in, of course I try to avoid splashing but there is an exposure to air during the process. Was just wondering if this has been enough to oxidise the brew ? Never had this problem with the kit &kilo's, AG beer more susceptible to oxidation perhaps ?

Goose

 

[Ross]

Goose,

Really hard to say what it is without tasting. Post where your location is & maybe someone experienced will volunteer to taste for you...

cheers Ross

 

[devo]

It's not sounding like an oxidation issue to me? What are you using to sanitise with?

 

[pint of lager]

If you are using a racking tube to minimise splashing on transfer, you are minimising oxygen being introduced into the beer.

Have you tried leaving a beer in primary and bottling from there? It is not going to hurt the brew to leave it in primary without transferring to secondary.

When your beer is carbonating, which is a small ferment, the yeast will scavenge most of the oxygen added when transferring to the bottling bucket.

Oxidisation is usually present as wet cardboard aroma or sherry aroma.

 

[Goose]

Hey Devo, I'm using a compound called ecolab ansep, a medical grade sanitiser sold by my local HBS. Its an alkaline / chlorine based sanitiser that I use well diluted in spray bottle then rinse with filtered water. But I use the same sanitiser for the primary and the resulting smell I am trying to combat is not medicinal (as can result from excess bleach use).

Pint, u say sherry smell, hmm... I could buy a bit of that actually. Sweet , muscaty... hint of vanilla maybe ?

I will try racking directly to keg under a CO2 blanket next brew...

The other thing I am going to do is use a paint stirrer and an electric drill to seriously aerate the wort prior to yeast pitching to minimise ester formation though I do not think this is the cause. BTW am using prehydrated SAF yeasts for the moment, planning to switch to liquid soon.

Something in (or missing from) my water possible cause as well ?

Goose

 

[devo]

does the ecolab have an odur itself?

 

[Finite]

your racking to the secondary FROM the primary and leaving it for ANOTHER 1 week or so THEN transfering to a bottling bucket with the priming sollution right?

in other words ur not adding the priming solution to the secondary fermenter are you?

What style of beers have you been brewing and what yeast. The flavour you describe seems to indicate estery/fruity flavours which is normaly related to the character, strain and stype of yeast as well as fermentation temps. However saying you still get this flavour when brewing a lager makes me think not.

Have you tried brewing a beer in a different fermenter? that may rule out some things

 

[Goose]

does the ecolab have an odur itself?

Indeed it does. Like bleach, but this is not evident after rinsing....

No good ?

Goose

 

[Finite]

Pint, u say sherry smell, hmm... I could buy a bit of that actually. Sweet , muscaty... hint of vanilla maybe ?

Are you bottling? in green bottles? your beer isnt getting light struck is it?

Blue wavelengths and ultra voilet light can cause a break down of the hop compounds causing a cat-musk / skunk aroma but I dont know how much that would effect the flavour.


How much head space is left in the secondary after racking?

 

[Goose]

your racking to the secondary FROM the primary and leaving it for ANOTHER 1 week or so THEN transfering to a bottling bucket with the priming sollution right?

in other words ur not adding the priming solution to the secondary fermenter are you?

Not quite.

I am racking into a secondary with a bit of dextrose to encourage a bit of CO2 production for a protective gas cap. I leave this for a week or so before bottling.

I then bottle or rack into TAD's that I have individually primed. I do not bulk prime.

Styles, well have been trying to keep it simple to eliminate this problem. Basically just 5 kg of base malt, for ales have been using cascade hops, for lagers hallertau. Ales brewed 18-20deg C, Lagers 10-12.

Lagers also have this damn smell...

Goose


Finite, just saw your post. No sir, just standard PET bottles. Secondary is ina cool (20 deg c) and dark place. Headspace, well, am just using standard Coopers carboy, so after racking use up 21 or 22litres of that space...

 

[Stuster]

Goose, as well as the sanitiser, what are you using to clean your fermenter, racking tubing etc? Using the sanitiser by itself is not enough. If the problem shows up in secondary it may be an infection. Infections can be described as spicy/clovey. I always give the fermenters etc a soak in napisan for a day or two after use. Have you cleaned inside your taps? Sorry if all this is obvious.

As Ross says, it might be best to ask somebody local for advice re the off flavour. Can you ask your LHBS? Post your location in My Controls, Edit Profile Information and somebody local may be able to help.

 

[Finite]

goose,

The movement from racking is normaly enough to stimulate a little more fermentation which will add a cO2 blanket....i dont think that adding that extra sugar would have much if any effect on the flavour though...

I use a water cube which are avalable from all hardware stores to rack to mine is 20L and cost about $20.

I find that without taking to much of the primary yeast cake it pretty much comes to about 20L with a little left over but hardly any...

here is my secondary after i had just racked a brown ale into it.

that sanitiser is having me worried also, try a batch sanitised with some idophor or sodium metabisulphate and see how that goes.

Also do you clean your fementer taps as stuster sudgested? they can be a very real place for infections to get in which people dont normaly check.. here is a link to a post i made about pulling them apart to clean.

 

[Goose]

Thanks Lads.

Stuster, I do clean out my fermenter & parts with a smidge of automatic dishwasher powder and a soft sponge.

Finite, on the taps, I have read about the thread already on the tap separation, I tried pulling it apart but failed (yeah ok am useless, I just seemed to squash the outlet orifice in the process :blink: ). But I have been soaking the tap for a few hours in sanitiser prior to using it. Think I may just buy a new assembly and give that a whirl. I'll also try an alternative sanitiser, but like I say, I dont get the smell in the samples I take from the primary.

Will keep you informed...

btw my location is in Perth timezone but 2250 nm due North so am afraid I will not be able to draw on Oz tasting experience unless i fly you guys a bottle or two .

Goose

 

[pint of lager]

It may be your transfer to secondary.

It is essential to minimise headspace in secondary.

Possibly, your strategy of adding dextrose to the secondary is causing the problem, or the headspace. You are trying to finish fermenting, yet you are encouraging fermentation by adding dextrose.

 

[Stuster]

As PoL says, maybe it's the transfer. Maybe it's time for new racking hoses. Is there any crud in them? A soak in napisan will help. I no longer do secondaries with ales and have been turning out clear beer with little sediment. Just let it sit for a couple of weeks in primary.

btw my location is in Perth timezone but 2250 nm due North so am afraid I will not be able to draw on Oz tasting experience unless i fly you guys a bottle or two .

Now I'm intrigued. Where are you? Christmas Island?

 

[Darren]

Goose,
Try a different yeast. SAF yeasts do have a very distinct flavour and aroma.

cheers

Darren

 

[devo]

I recon u should try using idophor to sanitise as well as invest in a new fermenter.