Natural Carbinating Kegs

[the_yobbo]

Looking through other threads theres a fair bit of info on natural carbing kegs. Obviously this generates a bit of extra yeast sediment on the bottom of the keg.

What is the general opinion about what to do with it?
a) Leave it there as it's not doing any harm and the first couple of beers poured will be a bit yeasty.
B) Transfer to a second keg to get the beer off the sediment (possibly important for long term warm storage??)
c) Adjust/bend the beer out shank so it doesn't suck from the lowest point in the keg.
d) Other (other suggestions)

Additionally, does anyone use the keg temperature 'smartstrips' (http://www.micromatic.com/part-pid-SS100.html) that show the keg temp and volume remaining? Are they worth there weight in gold or not particularly useful? I can imagine the volume strip being handy when you can see the kegs in place but positioned where you can't lift them. Although, you have to wipe them with a warm cloth to 'activate' them to see the level, which you could do without the strip and then feel the temperature of the keg to get the level. Any thoughts.

 

[scott_penno]

I use a soda stream bottle for dispensing atm so naturally carbonate kegs. Leave it for a few weeks so the sediment settles out. The first glass or two are pretty cloudy but from then on it's all good. If you move the keg, expect the sediment to get stirred up a bit so you'll need to leave it to settle out again. That's probably the biggest pain.

Regarding temperature and volume. Fridge temperature is fine by me and if you leave the door open for a few minutes, you'll generally get condensation forming on the outside of the keg up to the volume of liquid in the keg...

sap.

 

[JestersDarts]

I use a soda stream bottle for dispensing atm so naturally carbonate kegs. Leave it for a few weeks so the sediment settles out. The first glass or two are pretty cloudy but from then on it's all good. If you move the keg, expect the sediment to get stirred up a bit so you'll need to leave it to settle out again. That's probably the biggest pain.

Regarding temperature and volume. Fridge temperature is fine by me and if you leave the door open for a few minutes, you'll generally get condensation forming on the outside of the keg up to the volume of liquid in the keg...

sap.

I am naturally carbing my first keg - a stout. i figure I want it to mellow out for as long as possible, so no harm in letting the yeasties do the work of carbonating, instead of using up more gas.

I primed the keg with just less than the required amount for full carbonation for style too - because I figure when I hook it up to my balanced system, i'ts going to balance to the correct pressure. in that time.

I also figure that the first pour will be sedimentie - but mine usually are anyway.. I dont filter,

just CC and rack, then rack to keg..

we'll see how it goes!

 

[scott_penno]

Regarding carbonation. You need less sugar to bulk prime a keg than you do for bottles. I know BeerSmith allows you to specify if you're using bottles or kegs and gives you the appropriate value and I'd guess that ProMash would have something similar. I'm not real sure of the reason for this but there was a discussion a little while ago and speculation was something to do with head-space.

sap.

 

[501]

Also I believe many people who naturally carbonate kegs
bend or cut a bit off the end of the dip (beer out) tube ?
This is supposed to reduce the amount of sediment picked up.
cheers

 

[the_yobbo]

Is there a know official calculation to work out how much sugar you should use to naturally carb a keg? What would happen if you primed it with the same amount as per bulk priming bottles? Over carbonation?

 

[Rurik]

How can there be any more sediment in a keg that has been naturally condition as opposed to forced carbed if the yeast has gone into anaerobic condition and by this fact cannot multiply?

edit for spelling

 

[Cocko]

How can there be any more sediment in a keg that has been naturally condition as opposed to forced carbed if the yeast has gone into anaerobic condition and by this fact cannot multiply?

edit for spelling

Because the yeast is used to eat sugars, the priming sugars, which aren't added when force carbing. While eating, and creating C02 to 'naturally carb your keg, the yeast multiply and create sediment, as per priming a bottle. Simply put.

Yeah?

 

[Rurik]

Not simply put and the fact that you say this shows your lack of understanding of how yeast works. Yeast will only multilply when in aerobic condition. It goes out of aeorbic and in to anarobic in the early stages of fermentation because there is no more 02 in solution for it to breathe. Therefore there no O2 in soltution (I hope) at the time of packaging. So I ask my question again "How can there be any more sediment in a keg that has been naturally condition as opposed to forced carbed if the yeast has gone into anaerobic condition and by this fact cannot multiply?"

 

[JestersDarts]

So I ask my question again "How can there be any more sediment in a keg that has been naturally condition as opposed to forced carbed if the yeast has gone into anaerobic condition and by this fact cannot multiply?"

I DEMAND ANSWERS!!

 

[the_yobbo]

I DEMAND ANSWERS!!

Heh, look them up.

I just checked out http://www.beer-brewing.com/beer-brewing/b..._life_cycle.htm

I don't know if that is simplified, exaggerated or even correct, but I think it makes sense.
From the above links info, I have simplified the info as follows:
1) Wake up/Lag time: Yeast cells leave it's dormant state and builds up food reserves.
2) Growth: Yeast using oxygen in wort to multiply in numbers. Should produce foam on wort.
3) Fermentation: Eat sugars in wort creating alcohol. Should see drop in SG readings.
4) Sedimentation: Yeast running out of stuff to eat prepares itself for hybination and falls out of beer suspension. I'm not sure how long it would take for all yeast to fall out of suspension.

So, in relation to natural carbonation. Bottling beer does leave a small amount of head space of 'air' (assume 20% oxygen) therefore when swirling/shaking each bottle to disolve sugars (assume not bulk primed) would introduce a small portion of oxygen therefore yeast could possibly go back to step 2, growth. To what degree, I'm not sure.
Kegging however, you purge all oxygen (hopefully) when you fill, therefore it can't go back to step 2 (growth) and you've still got the same amount of yeast sediment either way.

(am I right?)

There you go, yeast basics for dummies by dummies.

 

[501]

How can there be any more sediment in a keg that has been naturally condition as opposed to forced carbed if the yeast has gone into anaerobic condition and by this fact cannot multiply?
edit for spelling

Have you observed this objectively?

In my understanding; the sediment formed in conditioning is not just from yeast multiplying.
As the yeast convert sugar into alcohol and carbon dioxide, other byproducts are produced.
These include dead or dormant yeast cells along with unfermented solids.

Yeast can multiply in near pure anaerobic conditions
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC185068/?page=5
Summary:
- fermentors injected with nitrogen
- comparison of different yeasts,
- brewers yeast Did / can grow.

iirc the factors causing yeast to go into the declining / dormant stages are more
to do with food depletion in the wort and alcohol tolerance.

Sorry I don't agree with your description of the yeast life cycle.
imo the different stages of the cycle overlap and this is oversimplified.

Cheers
:icon_chickcheers:

 

[the_yobbo]

Have you observed this objectively?

In my understanding; the sediment formed in conditioning is not just from yeast multiplying.
As the yeast convert sugar into alcohol and carbon dioxide, other byproducts are produced.
These include dead or dormant yeast cells along with unfermented solids.

Yeast can multiply in near pure anaerobic conditions
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC185068/?page=5
Summary:
- fermentors injected with nitrogen
- comparison of different yeasts,
- brewers yeast Did / can grow.

iirc the factors causing yeast to go into the declining / dormant stages are more
to do with food depletion in the wort and alcohol tolerance.

Sorry I don't agree with your description of the yeast life cycle.
imo the different stages of the cycle overlap and this is oversimplified.

Cheers
:icon_chickcheers:

Yeah, thought I might get in trouble for summarising what I read in a single website. The descriptions were purely based on the website linked, and I'm unsure if it was purely based at brewing yeasts or yeasts in general. However, it did match what Rurik mentioned below/above and he seemed pretty confident in his answer.
Agreed that those stages would have considerable overlapping.
Probably not a good sign that I'm unsure what anaerobic state/conditions actually means.

I'll look into it all a bit further when I get a chance.

 

[jakub76]

IMHO you don't need to shake air in to introduce oxygen into your beer. Any surface with air contact allows it in so racking into a keg, bottling (even bulk priming) will add O2. Plus you end up with sediment from your yeast and haze compounds settling out of solution. This will happen if you force or natural carbonate but I bet you would leave more yeast in suspension if you knew it still had to carbonate your beer, naturally.

 

[Batz]

Natural Carbinating Kegs, yeast sediment

You have try try this yourself really, I did it a couple of time years ago and quickly went off the practice. Thinking about it again after reading this thread, Coopers Pale clone....that could be nice.

Batz

 

[501]

The Muzz,
you definitely ain't in trouble;
You quoted a source and this is very good imo.

Just saying the earlier poster's life cycle outline was oversimplified.
Most seem to oversimplify for ease of understanding I guess.

Regarding anaerobic growth of yeast,
I thought this to be the case as well originally,
but it seems they can in fact multiply.

No surprise I guess, if they weren't so hardy we wouldn't have beer as we know it?

Batz, if I had unlimited kegs I would for sure be doing just that.

:super:

 

[barls]

i do this at home, i use half the sugar that you would normally. the only cloudy glasses i get are the first and last and i can live with this.
i havent bothered to cut the dip tube

 

[the_yobbo]

Well, I'm not a super fast drinker, so I'll try natural carbing my first attempt at Neil's Centenarillo.
Would love to purchase another 4 kegs so I could really stock up on beer naturally carbing and maturing in kegs well ahead of my drinking patterns.

 

[fraser_john]

i do this at home, i use half the sugar that you would normally. the only cloudy glasses i get are the first and last and i can live with this.
i havent bothered to cut the dip tube

+1

especially if you gelatine prior to kegging, great results.

 

[jakub76]

I'm curious...how much gas do you save? eg. 20 kegs when force carbing but 40 when natural?

+1

especially if you gelatine prior to kegging, great results.