My Cider Is As Dry As A Nuns Nasty

[komodo]

Guys,

I recently put down a cider of about 19L of berry apple juice, 5L apple and pear, 2L pear, about 300 grams of invert sugar (which I've had good results with in the past in ciders), 500grams of boiled saltanas, couple of cinnamon quils done in a "tea", 2 vanilla pods split but left whole and fermented with US-05.
Now its SG was 1.080 and the FG is now bang on 1.000. Normally this recipe stops at a FG of 1.012 and its bang on. Not too sweet, not too tart, no "alcohol" taste. Its a fantastic drop but a bloody dangerous one as its easy to write yourself off without realising it. But this batch - ugh its so dry and has a taste like cheap white wine. You can barely even taste apples.

The only real different I've made this batch is that normally I pitch my yeast into a 2.4L juice bottle with some juice removed and stick my OZTops lid on and let it build as a bit of a "starter" which I then two days later chuck into the fermenter with all the other ingredients. I've been doing this since my first batch about 18 months ago which smelt like rotten egg which I was told was because of lack of nutrient for the yeast. Where as this time I chucked the yeast into the fermenter with some yeast nutrient and I think this may have allowed the yeast to continue gobbling the sugars.
Also this time when I racked (I always rack my ciders after 2 weeks - I dont know why its just something I read once and have always done because its just "worked") normally after racking theres a bit of a stir up of activity - but this time it was as if I'd just started the cider two days earlier! Initially I'd just put that down to the nutrient being stired up again with the yeast - but now I'm concerned its something more sinister.

So my questions :
Am I right in my thoughts that its likely the yeast nutrient that has allowed the yeast to munch away too much of the sugar?
or is it likely I've got some wild yeast thats infected the batch ? keeping in mind I've never had an infection since washing in napisan and using starsan and I ferment in a temp controlled fridge which is wiped out with bleach after every ferment. :huh:

If it is my first assumption will adding lactose correct this? or can I chill for a week or so and hope most of the yeast drops out of suspension and rack onto some more juice and let it referment a bit and hope that without as much yeast and nutrient the yeast stops leaving me with apple flavours?

Suggestions??

Cheers

 

[Fourstar]

wow, thats a big drop with US05. if i do an aldi cider, straight juce its usually 1.044 down to 1.006-1.004. A decent 5%er.

Damn, looks like you have a big 10-11% cider there. Im not suprised it tastes 'winey' its merely 5% less than a bottle of 'Pink'! *Shudder*

 

[Screwtop]

Beyond US-05's attenuation range I would think, maybe something Wild

 

[drsmurto]

1.080 for that mix sounds a bit too high IMO.

Possibility of a dud hydro reading from the invert sugar not being mixed in thoroughly?

Assuming bought juice has an SG of ~1.046 give or take.

26L of juice at ~1.046
300g of sugar will add another 4 points.

Assuming a sultana is 60% by weight sugar that's another 300g of sugar so another 4 points.

So even with my back of the hand calculations that an OG of 1.054. Even allowing for stronger juice its unlikely you would be over 1.060.

That still doesn't explain the 100% apparent attenuation...... although simple sugars and yeast plus nutrient you would expect most yeasts to chew through it.

 

[komodo]

Yardy - my initial thoughts too but acording to this link :
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/safale-us...lerance-131984/
its good for 12% and they suggest its gets there like a rocket
But in saying that it shouldnt hit 1.000!

DrS. I've made this identical recipe a few times and I actually bought a new hydrometer recently from brewcraft (my LHBS) because I was starting to wonder about the acuracy of my old hydrometer and did back to back checks with both my hydrometers on this batch and they were within a bee winky of one another on each reading (my older slightly larger hydrometer from G&G read slightly lower).
Although going by your maths (and I'll behonest I dont really know a great deal about calculating this stuff) it does look like and extremely high SG for the recipe.

Also I was under the impression that inverting the sugar actually made it slightly less fermentable? Could it be that I haven't inverted as well as I previously have? (I'll admit I did "invert" this sugar by guestimate as my candy thermometer suffered a fate worse than death at the hands of my partner so I may not have fully inverted the sugar)

Certainly is starting to sound like I've got something wild though...

 

[bum]

I'd expect tasting notes of something other than "dry and winey" for a wild yeast infection to be the culprit. My experience is also that ciders do start off a bit winey - the higher the alc the worse it gets.

Barring it actually being a wild yeast infection, I'd just be blending with straight apple juice on serving. I used lactose in a cider once and found the results less than pleasing. Same in a GB. A bit of time will knock the edge of the winey-ness too.

 

[manticle]

I think lactose is virtually undetectable in a cider if you brew with it there in the first place. I've always been loath to add it in later.

As far as I'm aware a basic juice cider should sit somewhere around 1050. 1080 sounds crazy. Fermenting down to 1000 will make it dry and being a dry fruit based beverage could make it winey.

I'd let it age a bit and see how it goes. Try some with apple juice on serving, a couple with lactose and some as they are (bottling or kegging?).

I wouldn't blame the yeast nutrient and I'm not sure invert sugar is any less fermentable than sucrose.

PS Screwtop isn't Yardy.

 

[DU99]

Never tried a nuns nasty

 

[komodo]

I've been thinking about this 1.080 seems stupidly high as a SG but 1.012 also seems fairly high for FG using US-05.
I think DrS could be onto something regarding the dodgy hydrometer (or maybe I'm wearing beer googles when reading it and getting a bit excited?)
But then it doesnt make sence that now its dropped to 1.000? and it doesnt make sence that I'd have two completely different hydrometers giving me the same readings.

I dont know that its a wild infection (although definately not ruling this out) I still think theres something in my thoughts that yeast nutrient has enabled the yeast to keep munching for longer. The brew is still drinkable and I believe both manticle and bum are onto something regarding the wineyness getting better with time. I've had ciders in the past with a slight wineyness thats gone with a bit of ageing. I also think (hope?) that this will further go away when its carbonated. Its not horrible - its just not what I was expecting and I think that might have me discribing it worse than it is. I'll go home tonight and taste it again and see if I can give it some better descriptions.
I'm tempted to chill it down as low as the fermenting fridge will let me go for about a week then filter and rack onto some more juice to see if it fires off again. If it does I'll be interested to see how low it gets. Then again that just opens me up to more risk of infection especially without an "active" yeast being present. Maybe I should leave out the filtering part. Or maybe I should jsut back sweeten, keg and forget about it.
I'm spewing too as I really wanted to bottle this batch (never bottled a cider) but I think this is destined for a keg if its to be consumed at all now.
I dont really want to water the garden with it - but by the same token I dont really want 20odd litres of cider that no one wants to drink sitting around either.

PS Screwtop isn't Yardy.

LOL just picked up on that myself. Ooops! Sorry guys!

 

[sinkas]

My vote for thread title of the year

 

[Franko]

Beyond US-05's attenuation range I would think, maybe something Wild

I will second that motion

 

[Airgead]

I still think theres something in my thoughts that yeast nutrient has enabled the yeast to keep munching for longer.

Remember that attenuation rates listed for yeast are based on a typical beer wort. Essentially the attenuation is a measure of how well they will ferment complex sugars. Most yeasts, given sufficient nutrient at the start will munch simple sugars right down to 1.000. Apple juice is mostly simple sugars so it is not uncommon for them to finish absolutely dry.

Cheers
Dave

 

[Dazza_devil]

I'll drink her.
There's a lot worst nasties about than a nun's. Always pays to do a finger test first from my experience.

 

[WarmBeer]

Never tried a nuns nasty

Classic :lol:

 

[under]

A fix would be to back sweeten the cider using the same juice you used in the first place. Pour 3/4 a pint of cider and add the rest with cold apple juice.

 

[komodo]

Ok so I tried it last night.
Rechecked my hydrometer readings - 1.002. I got kel to check this and she agreed.
I got Kel to taste it again with me (She has a far better sence of taste and smell than I have and is better at descriptions)

We both agreed that it had no way near the "winey" flavour of sunday night how ever it was very dry. Kel said she could smell the apples faintly and definately could taste them. She also said the yeast smell and taste had gone and she though perhaps this was contributing to the wineyness. I still felt it was very tart - almost face contorting stuff I couldnt smell the apples but could "slightly" taste them.
I think I've jumped the gun a bit here so we will wait to see if it improves over a week chilled.

 

[manticle]

It's generally agreed cider takes a good amount of ageing to come good. I find cold conditioning (and cool ferment) goes a really long way.

 

[pdilley]

Apple Juice is acidic at 2.9-3.3 pH to start with and fermentation makes it even more acidic so there is your over tartness sour taste and why fermentation can sometimes produce dead elephant farts at times

You do need some acid for brightness in the finished cider but you may have to buffer the excess out or mix as suggested with fresh juice to pull the pH back up a bit.

Cheers,
Brewer Pete

 

[komodo]

Interesting. How do I pull the pH back up?

 

[cdbrown]

May I suggest adding dried malt rather than the inverted sugar for your next adventure. The cider drinkers have really enjoyed that it's comes out a fairly dry cider, but not too dry thanks to the malt. Also helps with a bit of body.