Music In The Cloud

[stux]

All I hear when people talk about "warmth" is clicks, pops, skips and buzzing. Tube amps? Yep, they're warmer. Vinyl? I'm not convinced.



This is just not true. First, there's FLAC, for the seriously crazy - completely lossless compression of the original digital audio (like .zip file compression).

The smart option is a decent Variable Bit Rate encoded MP3 though - if you're interested, let me know, and i'll send you a blind test app - I defy you to get any more than 50% correct when trying to tell the difference between a CD and a properly encoded MP3.

MP3 has some serious flaws that AAC rectifies and that can be spotted in a blind

Lossless audio is the same quality as a pristine CD
High def lossless audio is better than CD

 

[chunckious]

+1 For vinyl.
I was under the impression that digital is a more compressed sount than analogue.

 

[bum]

bum, not trying to be knob mate, but how does physics come into play?

genuinely interested.

Sound is physical, yeah? It's not an idea. It is something that "moves" in the tangible world. There are myriad ways that physics comes into play when discussing audio - the way it is recorded, the media used, the reproduction equipment, the reproduction environment, your own ears, heaps more. But, none of them are terribly important when we discuss our preferences (except your ears, I guess). It is fine and totally appropriate to have a preference but not so cool when we unequivocally state that such a preference proves one is inferior to the other.

If I buy music it is , nine times out of ten, going to be on vinyl. But that doesn't mean I believe that it is the best format for all purposes. Typically I'll be buying rock - and probably pretty low-fi to boot. Vinyl? Yeah, it's gonna sound pretty good. If I were buying anything requiring broad frequency response (or even particularly low bass for that matter) I would be looking at CD for sure. Do I just want it to listen to on the train through shitful earbuds? Then I'll get neither.

Your ideas about digital formats are ten to fifteen years behind what is current. As posted by pyrosx earlier - I challenge you to tell the difference between CD and a high bit-rate rip. 10 years ago? Yeah, I could hear it in the cymbals - everything sounded cheap and nasty. Not any more. I accept that none of that should change your preferences.

 

[bum]

+1 For vinyl.
I was under the impression that digital is a more compressed sount than analogue.

Not typically. In fact, the oft-discussed "warmth" of analogue comes from compression.

 

[Greg Lawrence]

Getting off topic again, but...

I recently had some visitors at home including a 15 year old who has grown up listening to mp3s on mp3 players, or at best an mp3 player connected to a dock or an average stereo.
I had a CD playing on the could not believe the quality of the sound coming from the speakers. He had never heard anything
so crisp. He knew the music that I was playing, but had never heard alot of the sounds of the different instruments before.

Im happy with the sound I get from a CD. They are convenient and my record collection is long gone. I occasionally play MP3s through an old laptop that I have permanently connected to my stereo and am always dissapointed with the quality. I only do it for the convenience of controlling Itunes from my ipad while sitting outside.


CDs through a decent stereo for me.

Greg




eg

 

[chunckious]

So does compression of sound have anything to do with the sound spectrum.
For instance. Black Sabbath's paranoid. I was always blown away buy the guitar tone of the solo. But it wasn't until I got it on vinyl that you could hear the 2 separate guitars doubled with completely different tones produce what I thought was 1 guitar.
I get this sort of thing all the time with Zeppelin or Mars Volta records which I just don't hear on the Cd's.

 

[bum]

I had a CD playing on the could not believe the quality of the sound coming from the speakers. He had never heard anything
so crisp. He knew the music that I was playing, but had never heard alot of the sounds of the different instruments before.

I sure he's far from alone too but I suspect this is more to do with hardware than format, to be honest.

So does compression of sound have anything to do with the sound spectrum.

That's a bit of a "how long is a piece of string" kind of question, but yeah, it does. Sorta.

I get this sort of thing all the time with Zeppelin or Mars Volta records which I just don't hear on the Cd's.

I can't speak specifically about the examples you give but many records (particularly the Sabbath and Zep) will have been mastered originally for vinyl and just get a rush job decades later (or no remastering at all) for CD transfer. For example, the original mono LP of Sgt Pepper's is famously a much more interesting record than the modern CD mixes (this may have been rectified in the last few years parhaps, not a huge Beatles fan). So you could easily be hearing these things but it is my opinion that it is somewhat misguided to generalise based on those experiences.

 

[pyrosx]

I occasionally play MP3s through an old laptop that I have permanently connected to my stereo and am always dissapointed with the quality. I only do it for the convenience of controlling Itunes from my ipad while sitting outside.

I too love that convenience - and itunes's "genius" tracklist making feature is fantastic.

But that disappointing quality? Ten bucks says its that old laptops crappy sound hardware. (You also could have dodgy encoded MP3s, which are sadly still more common than they should be - even the default ripping parameters on itunes itself last time I checked were less than awesome.)

Again though, my point is that, done properly, there is no appreciable difference between CD and digital files - apart from the fact that you have to get off your arse to change CDs, and be careful that they don't get scratched!

 

[Greg Lawrence]

Ten bucks says its that old laptops crappy sound hardware. (You also could have dodgy encoded MP3s, which are sadly still more common than they should be - even the default ripping parameters on itunes itself last time I checked were less than awesome.)

Probably right about the laptop, but cant justify buying a good one to have permanently connected to the stereo.
Default ripping settings on itunes were changes long ago.
Flacs are great, but large filoes and dont play on itunes.

 

[komodo]

Melbourne, Florida?

Yeah I have to agree. Melbourne has live original acts all over the place. I can go see a live original act in melbourne and surrounding suburbs any day of the week at pretty much any time.
Up untill recently melbourne was pretty much the only place to go with a decent live music scene. Brisvagas seems to be catching up. Perth is getting there with their artists because they feed a lot of money into it over there but they dont have the population to support the same scene as melbourne or brisbane.

Whilst I have some slightly differing oppinions on these matters as bum and I have clashed over in the past the fact is that digital music these days is about as good as it gets.
As for vinyl being less compressed or what ever you described it as - remember its more than 99% likely its been recorded on a digital device originally before being pressed to analogue format.

I love vinyl and valves - I also love monoaural playback and single driver speaker systems. Doesnt mean they are better than other technologies out there - infact if anything they are in many (not all) ways inferiour. But the sound I like.
This all said most of my listening to music is done on a pair of 2 way speakers I built using vifa drivers, solen inductors and mundorf caps being fed the tunes from a solid state (A-B class) amplifier paired to a boston sub and passive radiator powered by another solid state amp (D class) connected to a cd player, foxtel box or computer.


People blame MP3s but the fact of the matter is most of the time its the quality of the rest of the equipment (admittedly MP3s are about the worst form of digital music) that lets down the listening quality. Speakers, amplifiers and to a lesser extent interconnects and even power supplies make a huge difference.
You can have the worlds best SACD playing through a halcro amplifier and a set of JB HiFi speakers and the best sound your going to get is the limit of those speakers.
Then you have speaker placement, decoupling, reflections, eq'ing etc all this comes into play and the simple fact of the matter is that someone who cherishes vinyl is more likely to have their decent speakers properly spaced appart and away from the wall using spikes, having removed speaker grills using a decent amplifier etc than some kid with their $199 sanyo 4in1 MP3 CD player with ipod dock.

I've spent a LOT of time in many of melbournes live music venues as I used to do a lot of large format live mixing work as well as live record feeds.
I also spent a lot of time judging a car audio sound quality competition series (you may laugh but there are some seriously fantastic sounding car audio systems out there - $10,000+ (for installation (much of which is DIY), source, crossovers, time alignment, amplifiers and speakers) isnt particularly uncommon - not too many people have systems that compare in their homes) I've heard brilliant systems that are using mechless source (ie no cd player - completely digital file feed) I've also heard rubbish systems using top quality $2000+ cd players.


As for cloud music and cloud computing - its getting there. Im not quite convinced by it yet. Most of what I've delt with has been fairly slow and unreliable but its getting there and NBN can only help

 

[bignath]

Your ideas about digital formats are ten to fifteen years behind what is current. As posted by pyrosx earlier - I challenge you to tell the difference between CD and a high bit-rate rip. 10 years ago? Yeah, I could hear it in the cymbals - everything sounded cheap and nasty. Not any more. I accept that none of that should change your preferences.

This thread has been an interesting read to me, and has made me challenge all that i thought was informative and accurate about music mediums.

Looking back on it all, and with the above quote included, i will say that my ideas probably are outdated, and that compression, bit rate and all that other stuff including recording techniques blah blah blah, have no doubt improved quicker than my information given to me.

For what it's worth, i don't have any preference about which medium i use as i use so much of it that each has it's own purpose in my life - like yours too.
Quick itunes downloads for getting songs to students of mine to learn, or for me to use as material for songs for my band, but other formats for music around the house when i want other stuff.

You (bum and pyrosx) got me interested enough in this stuff to find out more, as having the correct technical information is a good idea.

 

[komodo]

Use an external sound card. Even a cheap one will change the quality dramatically. Turn off the laptops EQ and use an external EQ if you need. Use line out over a head phone out if possible or better yet a digital output and use an external DAC.

 

[Flash_DG]

Flacs are great, but large filoes and dont play on itunes.

VLC is your friend

 

[komodo]

I think the best rip you can get on itunes is WAV

 

[petesbrew]

Getting off topic again, but...

I recently had some visitors at home including a 15 year old who has grown up listening to mp3s on mp3 players, or at best an mp3 player connected to a dock or an average stereo.
I had a CD playing on the could not believe the quality of the sound coming from the speakers. He had never heard anything
so crisp. He knew the music that I was playing, but had never heard alot of the sounds of the different instruments before.

Classic... "what's this round shiny thing, is it a dvd?"

I love my mp3 player and what it can hold, and rarely pull out my cd copies. Perfect for working, brewing, or partying in the backyard. Hook it up to the stereo, set it on shuffle, done.

I find it a bit irritating when you see people playing their ipods through those tinny "made for ipod" systems, when on their shelf they've got a perfectly good stereo with an unused auxiliary input port. A set of $6 leads from jaycar and you're set.

But I really notice the difference between CD & Mp3 when you throw it in the car stereo, at least MY crappy car stereo.

 

[Greg Lawrence]

VLC is your friend

Tried that, but there is still the file size issue and can I control it remotely from my ipad?
I supppose I could chuck a bigger drive in the laptop.

Edit: I ssee that there is a remote control app for the ipad. Will try it when I get home.

 

[keifer33]

Just get dBpoweramp and convert your flac to apple losless format and away itunes goes playing all your music. If you are ripping from cd yourself itunes lets you convert it to losless on encoding.

 

[Greg Lawrence]

Lots of learning and useful new ideas here today.

It makes a nice change from the grumpy pricks that I have seen posting here lately with helpful comments like "did you try the search function" or "there are already 3 other threads on this topic"



Thanks guys.

 

[technoicon]

to be honest, i'm probably gonna be the minority, but i heard about this a while ago, and to me, it feels like a money making pie that i bet a lot of the big music publishing companies have a finger in. They have been losing sales on vinyl, cd's (actual hard copy purchases) to the digital revolution for a long time and are probably looking at other avenues to make their cash under the disguise of "customer convenience".

In my opinion, it's because of them that we have to stream.. music sales were up when napster was in full swing! btw it is way more convenient to go online download your songs right there and then.

QUALIFIER:
I'm a professional musician and music tutor (for a living) so i have overtly strong opinions on stuff like this, so take that with a grain of salt. There are a lot of things about the music industry which piss me off as it is so good at pulling the wool over the consumer's eyes.

eg: It's completely possible for an "artist" (used loosely in this day and age) to have a number one selling song or album without a single copy being owned by anyone. People automatically make the perceived link that they must have sold a lot of copies, but it's more to do with how many copies are shipped to the record store.

If a music publishing company want's to have a number one, they simply need to press more copies and have them shipped to the record store where it is hoped that they get snapped up.

streaming could change all this. they will have to go by how many people Listen to the music. which could be a much better score, or not depending how you look at it.

Record company's no longer make money of cd's or vinyl, but has anyone noticed the huge increase of band's touring over the last few years? Seems like every week there's another "big name" band coming out. Which is fantastic of course, but the motive behind it isn't "oh they must love australia sooooo much", it's more like "our fucken record company is pushing us to come out and spend 5 years on the road touring 'cause they have to make more money off of us".

The whole music cloud thing reeks of the same mentality forced onto the consumer. This is the way music is heading, and most likely the future of how we have to pay for, store, and listen to music. The consumer thinks "it's awesome, i don't have to actually store music on my own machine, i don't have to worry about the massive pain in the arse of spending 60 seconds importing a track, i can just access it up here"....I don't see it as convenience, i see it as a huge headfuck, when i won't be able to access my music at all when there are problems with the server, prob's with my internet connection, some other problem with licensing that thinks i don't "own" that copy of the track...I wan't a real product for my money. I love going to a cd store and actually spending 10mins or 10 hours looking through all the cd's and walking away with "something".

I couldnt even imagine carrying around 100cd's just in case i wanted to listen to that one song. not to mention having to have a cd player, or record player? neither my computer or phone or TV have this any more.
I walk to work have my subscription music playing, i search for what ever i feel like listening to at the time. Honestly it's still a little slow over 3g, but these things will improve with time.
then if a song comes on the radio. with in 5 mins it's on my playlist, on EVERY Device I own.

Best of all my playlist sync's with all my devices. i go home switch on the playstation, start playing my playlist. turn on my phone same story. computer, ect.

only thing i would like is caching, as this would mean if they are offline i would still be able to play my music.

the old story about owning something, is just that OLD. you could buy one CD for $15 a month.. i'll have them all(well most) for $15 a month.

Personally I'd like to be able to download but because of how the music industry handles piracy then this will never happen.

I actually think that it's the music industry that has not embrace technology like they should have. instead they sue the crap out of people that just want an easy quick way to download there music.

Can't help but think it's just another sad way that we as a society are gonna get screwed on. Every one loves itunes, media player, online digital downloads, torrents etc for their music, but it's ********* quality people.....It's being going downhill fast. Vinyl was fantastic (very brittle and easy to break though) but **** it sounds good on a good system. CD's can sound good, but they do sound digital (obviously) and lose a lot of the warmth of the original recording. MP3's and other digital file types are crap. Of course i use them though - it's almost compulsory in my job, but i'm not happy about it. There is so much quality missing in digital files it's ridiculous, and i fear that something like this "service" is only gonna dumb down our earbuds....

I reckon it's like the K&K version of music.

rant over, as i said, i have overly strong opinions on anything like this, and i'm not out to offend anyone or change opinions, just trying to educate on where a lot of "musicians" feel the industry is going.

i dont think it matters to 90% of people. the quality is good enough. it's the BIAB of music! it works, it's cheap, and you get to listen to good music!!

Rant Over as well... this is not an attack on you btw.. it's just my point of view on the matter.

 

[bignath]

Most of your replies to my quotes are coming from a point of view of convenience - which i don't argue with, i actually agree with so i'm not so sure where exactly you're going with most of it...I agree with you.

My point is that it seems to me that all the power of ownership is being taken away and call me a romantic but if i'm parting with my hard earned cash, i like to be able to have a tangible product to account for it.

I don't use music cloud or whatever it's called, but is EVERYTHING available on it? I mean absolutely everything?

iTunes has big problems with licensing that mean unless the record company's artists sign up to having their stuff available, you can't get it there.

That's why i like cd stores. Sure they may not have it right then and there, but give 'em a few days and you can get whatever the hell you want.

I use iTunes a lot though, i spend many thousands of dollars on it each year for repertoire for both teaching and performance material, and as such a heavy user, i agree it has it's place. I own several iPods, docking stations, stereo's etc....so i make use of the convenience factor too.

I guess i just don't like the idea of subscribing or paying a fee for a service that MAY (never used it mind you) give me a selection of music to listen to, instead of the whole world. Seems a bit like possible censorship to me (which i also hate).

It may start all nice and good, but the cynic in me feels we will most likely be herded into a corner one day by people in the industry that hold (or are trying to hold) all the power.

Hope i'm wrong.