Munich Helles Yeast

[A3k]

Hi guys,
I'm about to make my second beer from Brewing Classic Styles. I'm thinking about going the Munich Helles.

I currently have 6 slants of Budvar WY2000 in my fridge (if anyone wants one) and was wondering if that would be too out of style. The recipe calls for Munich Lager 2308. Would the differences be big?

Also, i put the recipe into beersmith and changed the bitterness to Rager, and it's still 16IBU not 18. Any clues to why?

Thanks,
Alan

 

[A3k]

maybe i should try S-189. Never tried it before and may be more suited to this.

 

[JoeG]

I've used Wy2206 and 2308 in Helles before - the beer made with 2308 was wonderful, I would highly recommend it if you can get some. Having said that, I'm planning to use some Budvar 2000 in a Helles in the next few weeks - I've not used it before, but going by the description I think it will suit the style well enough.

Personally, if it was a decision between s-189 and the Wy2000, I would definitely use the Wy2000.

What hops did you have in mind?

 

[newguy]

Given wyeast's description of this yeast leaving a beer crisp & dry, I'd mash on the warm side to compensate. Definitely use the 2000. Perhaps also shoot a bit low on the IBUs just in case.

 

[Fourstar]

Hmm, abit of a tricky one. BCS asking for 2308 is due to the beer being malt focused. Wyeast recommend going for the Bohemian Lager Strain, that would have been my 1st choice as well.

I see JZ's thaught process for going the Munich Lager Strain over the bohemian. As the Bohemian finishes dry, it will probably just end up tasting like an underhopped german pils.

Go the munich lager if you can or another malt focused lager strain. If all else fails, use what you have got, it may detract from the helles malt character slightly but either way... still a great beer.

 

[A3k]

I've used Wy2206 and 2308 in Helles before - the beer made with 2308 was wonderful, I would highly recommend it if you can get some. Having said that, I'm planning to use some Budvar 2000 in a Helles in the next few weeks - I've not used it before, but going by the description I think it will suit the style well enough.

Personally, if it was a decision between s-189 and the Wy2000, I would definitely use the Wy2000.

What hops did you have in mind?

This is the recipe from the book Brewing Classic Styles.
As for the hops, Ive just looked at the beerbelly website to see what theyve got. Will adjust the AA accordingly.
Looks like Ill probably go the NZ Hallertauer. Have used it before with success, but never done a helles. Never used the Hallertauer Aroma hops before, but its really just bittering, so I dont think the aroma would come throuh anyway Any thoughts?

If the 2308 is good, I dont mind forking out for the yeast. Just adds to my slant library I guess.


BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Munich Helles
Brewer: Al
Asst Brewer:
Style: Munich Helles
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 22.70 L
Boil Size: 33.09 L
Estimated OG: 1.048 SG
Estimated Color: 4.5 SRM
Estimated IBU: 16.3 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
4.53 kg Pilsner (Weyermann) (1.7 SRM) Grain 90.91 %
0.34 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (7.1 SRM) Grain 6.82 %
0.11 kg Melanoidin (Weyermann) (30.0 SRM) Grain 2.27 %
31.00 gm Hallertauer [4.00 %] (60 min) Hops 16.3 IBU
1 Pkgs Budvar Lager (Wyeast Labs #2000) Yeast-Lager


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body
Total Grain Weight: 4.98 kg
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Light Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
75 min Mash In Add 13.00 L of water at 71.9 C 65.6 C
10 min Mash Out Add 8.32 L of water at 93.5 C 75.6 C

Given wyeast's description of this yeast leaving a beer crisp & dry, I'd mash on the warm side to compensate. Definitely use the 2000. Perhaps also shoot a bit low on the IBUs just in case.

Cheers new guy.
Will take that advice if I decide on the 2000. Im not opposed to using 2308, just really trying to see if its worth buying another wyeast packet.


Thanks for the help guys. What do you think of the ricipe?
it says 16.2IBU in beersmith, but the book say 18 with the same formula. who knows!

 

[Fourstar]

The recipe looks good!

Ive been tempted to knock this recipe out sometime soon with a slight modification. i think i'd do the following:
- drop the melanoiden
- up the munich to 8% and Pils to 92%
- do a single decoction to get to mashout

If i got lazy, i'd revert to the backup of the BCS recipe. I think JZ has opted for a small melanoiden addition to compensate for no decoction

Cheers!

 

[A3k]

Hmm, abit of a tricky one. BCS asking for 2308 is due to the beer being malt focused. Wyeast recommend going for the Bohemian Lager Strain, that would have been my 1st choice as well.

I see JZ's thaught process for going the Munich Lager Strain over the bohemian. As the Bohemian finishes dry, it will probably just end up tasting like an underhopped german pils.

Go the munich lager if you can or another malt focused lager strain. If all else fails, use what you have got, it may detract from the helles malt character slightly but either way... still a great beer.

Yeah i looked at the website and saw that the bohemian lager was it's number one for a munich helles. And as it said it finished dry, i was wondering why.

The recipe looks good!

Ive been tempted to knock this recipe out sometime soon with a slight modification. i think i'd do the following:
- drop the melanoiden
- up the munich to 8% and Pils to 92%
- do a single decoction to get to mashout

If i got lazy, i'd revert to the backup of the BCS recipe. I think JZ has opted for a small melanoiden addition to compensate for no decoction

Cheers!

Yeah I agree with the melanoiden. Especially as the book has each recipe as extract and allgrain, keeping them as similar as possible.

Two out of my last three beers have been decocted and fermented with 2000. 1 turned out great (CAP) and the other (Czech Pils tripple decoction) I kegged before work today after lagering for about 6weeks so treat tonight.

Dont think I can be bothered with a decoction this time though, so I will probably keep with the recipe. However your mods do sound appealing.

I reckon I may end up using the 2308. I havent done many malt orientated beers lately and this was one of my reasons for choosing this, so I should do it properly.




Cheers Guys,

 

[JoeG]

I really think it depends on how close to an original helles you would like to make. I reckon you could make a beer with Jamil's grain bill, NZ hallertau hops and Wy2000 yeast - and it would be a very nice beer, a variation on the helles theme.

However, I do believe (I am no expert though) that noble hops are still an important part of a good helles, even though its a malt driven beer. The best helles I have made had a single addition of Hersbruck plugs at 45min (ie alot of plugs). Still made a luscious malty beer, but with a distinct noble hop character in the background.

I also think helles is all about pils malt character - I wouldn't mess with the munich or melanoiden myself.

Its one of those styles that's deceptively simple - pils malt, noble hops and yeast. Its not quite that easy though.

Either way you'll make a good beer.

Cheers

 

[A3k]

I really think it depends on how close to an original helles you would like to make. I reckon you could make a beer with Jamil's grain bill, NZ hallertau hops and Wy2000 yeast - and it would be a very nice beer, a variation on the helles theme.

However, I do believe (I am no expert though) that noble hops are still an important part of a good helles, even though its a malt driven beer. The best helles I have made had a single addition of Hersbruck plugs at 45min (ie alot of plugs). Still made a luscious malty beer, but with a distinct noble hop character in the background.

I also think helles is all about pils malt character - I wouldn't mess with the munich or melanoiden myself.

Its one of those styles that's deceptively simple - pils malt, noble hops and yeast. Its not quite that easy though.

Either way you'll make a good beer.

Cheers

Hi Joe,
For the malt, i'm kinda trying to make known recipies again, as i went through a big stage researching styles on AHB and making up recipes accordingly. Worked well for me and i learnt lots, but now want to try some recipes from the book too.

I wanted to go down the noble path, but I also really like using flowers. I find I get much less trub (practically zero) into the cube. Not a big deal though. I'm sure plugs would have the same appeal as flowers, but there weren't any appropriate.

The list of options I have from beerbelly are:

Pellets
Czech Saaz Pellets 4.5% AA
Tettnang Pellets 4.1% AA
Hersbrucker Pellets 2.3% AA (GER) Temporarily Out of Stock
Perle Pellets 7.2% AA (GER)

Flowers
B-Saaz Whole Flowers (NZ '07) 6.8% AA
Pacific Hallertau Whole Flowers (NZ '07) 6.9%AA
Hallertau Aroma Whole Flowers 8.9% AA

But i guess i can always cheat on them. Kinda got my yeast from somewhere else last time. But they werent putting out, so what else could i do.

 

[Fourstar]

Good Points JoeG. Variation on a Helles or as i said, an underhopped German Pilsner.

Yeah it is a simple style, Much like a pilsner is 'simple'. If you forget about the mashing techniques, water profile, fermentation and pitching temps!

The main reason i would use some Munich in a Helles is to help the malty breadcrustiness along without having todo a tripple decoction brewday. Ignoring that, i would go 100% pils and decoct away... Im just lazy.

Giving this is a malt focused beer, a good whack of chloride would be beneficial too. Considering melbournes water is akin to pilsen i would be putting down around 4g of calcium chloride to bump up the chloride and give the malt abit more of a backbone and a pinch of calcium sulphate (2g) to give the hops abit of a pop. (sulphate content is 3ppm on avg in my area). I dont know the water profile for SA so you may just be able to ignore that a3k.

To put it in clearer terms
Calcium: 75ppm
SO4: 50 ppm
Cl: 115 ppm

Everything else can be kept stock (preferably low).


Cheers!

 

[A3k]

Giving this is a malt focused beer, a good whack of chloride would be beneficial too. Considering melbournes water is akin to pilsen i would be putting down around 4g of calcium chloride to bump up the chloride and give the malt abit more of a backbone and a pinch of calcium sulphate (2g) to give the hops abit of a pop. (sulphate content is 3ppm on avg in my area). I dont know the water profile for SA so you may just be able to ignore that a3k.

To put it in clearer terms
Calcium: 75ppm
SO4: 50 ppm
Cl: 115 ppm

Everything else can be kept stock (preferably low).


Cheers!

Yeah, i haven't gone used chemisty in my brews yet, but have read up a little on them. I have a bit of time before brewing this one, so maybe it's time to look into it and finally make some water changes.
Cheers,
Al

 

[Fourstar]

Iv only just jumped into he deep end. MY AIPA thas fermenting at the moment was the 1st trial, i have 3 beers planned, all with different water additions to do different things as well.

Mild - up the chlorde to round out malt, and up calcium for yeast heath, a touch of bicarbonate for darker malts
American Brown - sulphate for hops, calcium for yeast and bicarbonate for darker malts
American Rye - Chloride for malt, calcium for yeast, Sulpate for hops.

Basically, the major flavour affecting minterals are Sodium, Chloride, Sulphates and bicarbonates. If you keep them around 150ppm depending on the beer your making (use the right minerals in the correct beer) you can stay relatively safe.


Quick reference:
Sulphates - hop character
Sodium - Malt Character
Chlode - Malt Charcter
Magnesium - Some yeast health and Hardness
Calcium - Yeast Health and water hardness.
Bicarbonates - Alkalinity (to buffer darker grains and add temporary hardness)

read howtobrew.com 'reading a water report' section under all grain. Perfect to give you an idea.

Cheers!

 

[JoeG]

I love the Kiwi flowers too Al, you should see my freezer downstairs at the moment

Given the choice, I would use flowers or plugs for everything - its not always going to happen though. If you want to use all flowers, I'd be leaning towards Pacific Hallertauer - the Bsaaz would be a bit too citrusy for helles. Another option would be to blend some tettnang or hallertau pellets with flowers. I use a hopstopper in the kettle and can go a 50/50 blend of pellets and flowers without any run-off dramas or hot-break in the cube. Plugs work just as well as flowers in that respect.

I don't take a very scientific approach to water treatment - I add a touch of calcium chloride to every mash, purely because it seems to work. I think you'll be much better off listening to Fourstar's advise on water chemistry.

Hope it turns out well whatever you do. Unfortunately, because its a real lager, you won't know for quite some time :lol: