Measuring Post-boil Efficiency

[Cocko]

either way i guess it doesnt matter what way you measure it yourself aslong as its consistant, it just doesnt mean anything at all when you try to compare it with others unless they are doing it the same way

I would have to agree 100% with tones...

Understand how you can take the right reading BUT the main thing is, get you system to a point where you use X amount of grain in X amount into the fermenter - Is it the gravity you were trying for? Yes - Efficiency is correct. No - Keep adjusting ****.

You brew on your brewery, learn how/what it will produce = sorted.

2c. [Currently trading at .057c.]

 

[Thefatdoghead]

Think I understand what you's are on about. So you minus trub loss from your efficiency and this is efficiency into fermentor? I have only ever used beertools and that works for me. My into fermentor efficiency I worked out to be 79% with 3L trub loss and full volume is 84% without trub loss.

 

[SJW]

Think I understand what you's are on about. So you minus trub loss from your efficiency and this is efficiency into fermentor? I have only ever used beertools and that works for me. My into fermentor efficiency I worked out to be 79% with 3L trub loss and full volume is 84% without trub loss.

They are about the same numbers as I get Gav. Do u use a Braumeister?

Steve

 

[Gar]

I'm with Tonesbrew as well, brewhouse efficiency measured in the fermenter.

I only use efficiency numbers for my records, it's pointless giving someone a recipe based on my urn's deadspace or my whirlpool technique / lack there-of....

Recipe DB's I use 70% though.

 

[kelbygreen]

i agree that efficiency isnt the go to thing every one will be different and every one will calculate it different. I get grain from mark and in his software I knock out 77% eff in beersmith I knock out 74% I know that when I order I order to that and when I put my recipe into beersmith I put it in as that.

I also dont think its good getting to much out of your grain, I am sure you will extract unwanted things if you go to high. I have read (not sure the truth in it) that if you go over 85% then your worse off. I dont think eff is a big deal, Sure we get into brewing to save money but is a few $ on a brew saving you that much?? I made a 5.9% beer and put 43lts into fermenter for $36.70!!! Now would I bother saving money by upping my efficiency? No!. if thats not cheap I aint sure what is. Oh sure I had to drink 3 coopers bottles to get the yeast and allow for 180g of LDME but still a cheap beer in the end.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Probably the main reason to use efficiency measured in your kettle, either pre-boil or post boil (should be the same figure) is because thats what the brewing magazines and the major recipe books use. They cant use anything else.

X amount of grain at Y efficiency gives you Z liters of wort at W gravity. The books and magazines use that measure because its a point all brewers share in their process.... after that in your system, brewhouse, yeild, package etc etc efficiency is just about how much of that wort you waste between the end of the boil and your bottles or kegs.

Which measure of efficiency you use only matters if you need to communicate your recipe to someone else.... like the books and magazines and (for instance) posters to internet forums do - you have to specify where,what and how you are measuring when you say Y% - and the lowest amount of information you have to convey, comes if you use efficiency measured in the kettle.

Unless of course you do what i think you should do (someone above mentioned it too) and dont quote efficiency at all.

Grain in Perentages
Target Specific Gravity
Target IBUs

done - and then nobody has to care what or where you personally measure your efficiency, as long as it works for you.

 

[katzke]

The only reason we use any number at all is to predict how much wort we will ferment and how much good stuff will be in that wort.

As has been pointed out different programs calculate things differently as well as different brewers use different terms for the same calculation.

 

[glenwal]

Both measures are extremely useful, but in very different ways. IMO mash efficiency, or pre boil efficiency, is the only one worth sharing with a recipe. Of someone shares a recipe that needs an amount of grain and an about of water at a specific efficiency, then people can adjust to suit their own process and equipment. Get really poor efficiency doing stove top biab, no problems because you know exactly how to compensate.

Brew house efficiency on the other hand is needed so you can correctly scale a recipe. Need to fill a 19 keg, just calc backwards and you'll know what size batch to do so you don't have to worry about bottling that last few litres.

 

[Thefatdoghead]

They are about the same numbers as I get Gav. Do u use a Braumeister?

Steve

Yeah Steve I have the 50L.

 

[stux]

The big problem is that popular software (ie BeerSmith) uses the term "Brewhouse Efficiency" to mean "Efficiency Into Fermenter"

BS2 uses the term "Mash Efficiency" to mean "Efficiency Into Kettle", which is based on "Pre-boil Gravity" and "Pre-boil Volume", what temperature the volume measurement is assumed to be at I do not know

So, the term Brewhouse Efficiency, at least in the homebrew world is no longer clear. Classically it might've meant the result of conversion efficiency * lautering efficiency which equals the efficiency in the kettle (both pre and post boil). And brewhouse Yield might've meant what you actual get OUT of your brewhouse and into your fermenter, but because of the software situation the term "Brewhouse Efficiency" has become unclear, and I don't think that is going to change any time soon.

For the avoidance of doubt, imo, its best to be clear, and use the terms "Efficiency Into Kettle" and "Efficiency Into Fermenter"

The term Mash Efficiency has problems as well, is the Mash Efficiency the efficiency of the Mash or the efficiency of the lauter

 

[katzke]

Unless of course you do what i think you should do (someone above mentioned it too) and dont quote efficiency at all.

Grain in Perentages
Target Specific Gravity
Target IBUs

done - and then nobody has to care what or where you personally measure your efficiency, as long as it works for you.

I thought you died or gave up. Nice to see you posting.

I agree. Just give a hop schedule and a grain bill in % with a target gravity and IBU. If you can not figure out how to give the grain bill in % I can figure it out even if you post it in liters of kittens.

Brewing with extract and grains, no problem as I can figure that out also. Anyone that is dedicated to brewing can figure it out. Lets see, there is 29 times more grain then dry extract and 3 times more liquid then dry. Or have I got that back wards?

All kidding aside, it is not rocket science. Plenty of places to find the conversion from grain to extract. Any half bright school kid can use a calculator to convert kilos of grain to %. I have to convert kelos to pounds and I can do that and end up with % grain bill.

Lets see, you convert kelos to stones and then convert that to pounds. Right?

Have fun brewing, it should be fun. You have to work hard at it to mess it up.

 

[MHB]

The underlying problem is that it has never been clear! There never has been a time when all brewers either home or professional used the same language.
Malts sold in Germany used to have the potential expressed as % of grain not Congress Mash so its about 20% different to from the get go, that has lead to a lot of confused brewers over the years but at least with the German system you couldnt get 110% efficiency which you can with the one we use now..
Like it or not basically all the books we read and most of the software out there looks at what is in the kettle at the end of boil, I have argued for a more consistent and accepted standard for years, ultimately I capitulated its just easier to go with the flow and talk about the end of boil efficiency and as I said before leave it up to the brewer to work out how they divide their wort up, which lets face it isnt all that hard, we should all know how much we are going to be leaving behind, so your target is that plus whatever you want in your fermenter.
M

 

[stux]

Probably the main reason to use efficiency measured in your kettle, either pre-boil or post boil (should be the same figure) is because thats what the brewing magazines and the major recipe books use. They cant use anything else.

X amount of grain at Y efficiency gives you Z liters of wort at W gravity. The books and magazines use that measure because its a point all brewers share in their process.... after that in your system, brewhouse, yeild, package etc etc efficiency is just about how much of that wort you waste between the end of the boil and your bottles or kegs.

Which measure of efficiency you use only matters if you need to communicate your recipe to someone else.... like the books and magazines and (for instance) posters to internet forums do - you have to specify where,what and how you are measuring when you say Y% - and the lowest amount of information you have to convey, comes if you use efficiency measured in the kettle.

Unless of course you do what i think you should do (someone above mentioned it too) and dont quote efficiency at all.

Grain in Perentages
Target Specific Gravity
Target IBUs

done - and then nobody has to care what or where you personally measure your efficiency, as long as it works for you.

So, the question then becomes the hop bill...

Providing IBUs is fine, especially for the bittering charge, but for the flavour and aroma, and possibly the dry hop additions, what then?

Is it best to provide them in g/L? and then with a total IBU you can modify the bittering addition to balance?

Sometimes I see things... like BrewBrite which says "x g per 23L batch"... is that 23L into the fermenter or 23L in the kettle? it would make more sense for it to be a kettle measurement, as we've been going on about trub being up to the brewer... but I dunno

The same applies to g/L hops... is that based on end of boil volume? pre boil volume? mid boil volume or volume into fermenter?

 

[SJW]

True Brewhouse efficiency (efficiency into the fermenter) means nothing to me. Recently got much higher post boil gravity than I wanted. So I had to water the wort down to stay within design guidline for that style, but I still only ended up fermenting 20 litres, enough for a keg. I ended up keeping a couple of litres for atarter then dumped the rest.

 

[bullsneck]

True Brewhouse efficiency (efficiency into the fermenter) means nothing to me.

You seemed to be quite into high efficiency in that YouTube clip

 

[SJW]

You seemed to be quite into high efficiency in that YouTube clip

You bet, but like I said I dont ferment everything I boil, thus the efficiency at the end of the boil is what interests me. I would not call it high efficieny either. Its not like I did anything special to get it.

 

[katzke]

So, the question then becomes the hop bill...

Providing IBUs is fine, especially for the bittering charge, but for the flavour and aroma, and possibly the dry hop additions, what then?

Adjust just like grain if needed. Course we add hops by the ounce or measurable fraction, like half ounces. Hops are not a big issue unless the recipe needs to be scaled by a factor of .5 or 2.

 

[zoigl]

Hi Katzke
Could you give me any tips about scaling the hop additions?
I have been scaling 100 litre recipes for ale to fit my 50 litre Braumeister. I have been using Beersmith. So far I seem to be way over-hopping when I have the hop additions.
Is there a rule of thumb for hop additions that I have missed? I seem to be having a mental blockk and any suggestions or help would be really appreciated.
cheers

 

[Thirsty Boy]

So, the question then becomes the hop bill...

Providing IBUs is fine, especially for the bittering charge, but for the flavour and aroma, and possibly the dry hop additions, what then?

Is it best to provide them in g/L? and then with a total IBU you can modify the bittering addition to balance?

Sometimes I see things... like BrewBrite which says "x g per 23L batch"... is that 23L into the fermenter or 23L in the kettle? it would make more sense for it to be a kettle measurement, as we've been going on about trub being up to the brewer... but I dunno

The same applies to g/L hops... is that based on end of boil volume? pre boil volume? mid boil volume or volume into fermenter?

g/l - and you are always talking about your post boil volume unless you mean dry hops (or other fermenter additions), when its obviously fermenter volume.

If you make 30L of wort and only get 25 to fermenter - but i make 30L of wort and get 28L into fermenter. If we want the same amount of late hop character in the final beer .. which volume do we look at?

we look at the 30L volume.

Not that it matters all that much unless there is some truly vast difference in efficiencies or volumes.

I suggest that if you find recipes that dont clearly indicate all the information you need to scale a brew to your system - either by specifying volumes and where/how efficiency is measured - or buy using percentages etc in a clear fashion... find a recipe from someone else. Plainly you dont know the brewer and haven't tasted the beer or you could just ask - so at the end of the day its just something that seems to sound good from a book, mag or the web. Find something else that both sounds good and conveys the information you need. Or take a risk and do some experiential learning.

TB

 

[glenwal]

Don't forget about aa% of your hops too, and not just when scaling. While they normally don't vary to much for a particular hop, it can make a difference.