Mashout V's No Mashout = ? Efficiency

[SJW]

This is a big question with a lot of different answers but I am trying to find out what are the advantages of doing a Mashout? I understand what it does, but I have not noticed any difference in final beer quality one way or another. I usually decide to Mashout or not based on the style of beer I am doing in relation to the amount of grain I am mashing. I.e. typically for a standard Lager I would do a mashout soley for the benefit of only needing to do one batch spage afterwards to reach pre-boil volume. Now if I am doing a Belgian Strong or something with a large grain bill I would not do a mashout for the 2 reasons, firstly that I may not have enough room left in my mash tun and secondly with such a large grain bill I dont seem to need as mush sparge water.
I understand that by doing a mashout it increases viscosity of the mash liquor thus enabling it to flow easier and theoretically achieve higher efficiencies but I think that a similar result are achieved with accurate sparge water temps.
The only limitation I have is with only one March pump I am forced to batch sparge but with a big recirc. And typically two batch sparges with no mashout or one batch sparge with a mashout nice and slow I still get 75%+ efficiencies.
So what do u guys do and why?
And how do u find it effects your effiencies using one method or another?


Steve

 

[nifty]

I always mashout with about 10 litres of near boiling water to make up my first batch sparge volume.

I continuously recirc the mash with a march pump. At mashout I turn the pump off, add the mash out water to the top of the tun, turn the pump back on and let it circulate through for about 10 to 15 mins. Emtpy the tun, fill it up with more sparge water, recirc for about 10 to 15 mins and then empty.

I constantly get 85% to 88% efficiency into the boiler, but I think the crush helps with the good efficiency as well.

cheers

nifty

 

[bear09]

This is a big question with a lot of different answers but I am trying to find out what are the advantages of doing a Mashout? I understand what it does, but I have not noticed any difference in final beer quality one way or another. I usually decide to Mashout or not based on the style of beer I am doing in relation to the amount of grain I am mashing. I.e. typically for a standard Lager I would do a mashout soley for the benefit of only needing to do one batch spage afterwards to reach pre-boil volume. Now if I am doing a Belgian Strong or something with a large grain bill I would not do a mashout for the 2 reasons, firstly that I may not have enough room left in my mash tun and secondly with such a large grain bill I dont seem to need as mush sparge water.
I understand that by doing a mashout it increases viscosity of the mash liquor thus enabling it to flow easier and theoretically achieve higher efficiencies but I think that a similar result are achieved with accurate sparge water temps.
The only limitation I have is with only one March pump I am forced to batch sparge but with a big recirc. And typically two batch sparges with no mashout or one batch sparge with a mashout nice and slow I still get 75%+ efficiencies.
So what do u guys do and why?
And how do u find it effects your effiencies using one method or another?
Steve

If you do not mash out then while you are sparging the enzymes keep working i,e; the malt profile of your beer will continue to change. If you mash out all enzym activity will stop and your malt character will be locked in place - I prefer this.

Interesting to note - Most micro's dont mash out based soley on the cost of heating 1500 Litres of water up 15 degs. At home in a pot it seems like nothing but to them it could be $150 extra on the powerbill for a batch... scary huh...

Mash out is quick and easy - I strongly recommend it.

Cheers! :chug:

 

[KoNG]

i voted mashout batch sparge: i mainly do this to help with sparging more so than stopping the enzymes at a certain point.

Just a small point SJW, doing a mashout witl "decrease" the viscosity of your wort, allowing for a better run off, not the other way round.

Cheers
KoNG

 

[SJW]

If you do not mash out then while you are sparging the enzymes keep working i,e; the malt profile of your beer will continue to change. If you mash out all enzym activity will stop and your malt character will be locked in place - I prefer this.

I can't understand why letting the enzymes keep working is a problem anyway. Surely they will only keep working while there is starch to convert. I thought the idea was to have max enzyme activity until all the starch was converted so why would we want to stop that at any point? Maybe I need to do a side by side test and see if I can tell any diff between a mashout and non mashout. I cant imagine the malt character altering that much.

Just a small point SJW, doing a mashout witl "decrease" the viscosity of your wort, allowing for a better run off, not the other way round.

Sorry, my balls up

 

[Asher]

Malt character maybe not... Malt profile yes.
In striving to be able to reproduce results I do a mash out.

Unless your kettle temp is the same as your desired mash temp during the length of the sparge the enzymes will continue to chew sugars. If its not you will get some significant cooling of the first runnings returning the wort to a beta-like rest temp with will produce a drier beer than otherwise calculated. Sparge flows & times in my brewery are not controlled as well as other parts so I like to have the enzymes denatured before they hit the kettle....

Asher

 

[Mr Bond]

i voted mashout batch sparge: i mainly do this to help with sparging more so than stopping the enzymes at a certain point.


Cheers
KoNG

"Ditto"

 

[goatherder]

SJW, have a listen to the Basic Brewing Radio podcast with Denny Conn. It's about batch sparging in general but he covers the mashout question. He's done a bit of research on the topic and if I remember correctly said he couldn't detect an efficiency increase when using a mashout. His advice seemed to be that it wasn't an important or necessary step but it didn't hurt to do it.

Linky: http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing...4-12-07conn.mp3

edit: For the record, I batch sparge with no mash out. I skip the mashout to save having to heat up enough water to get to mashout temps. Saves time and energy for me. I have the kettle heating pretty much straight after first runnings, so this fixes the enzymes for me.

 

[matti]

In partial
I mashed out fly sparging but haven't got the facilty to to ag this way.

In my One AG thus far I batch sparged and mashed out.

I have not enough experience to to compare efficiencies

I am mashing out according to recipes.
Reason why stated above.
It is all about profile of thy beer.
matti

 

[Keifer]

QUOTE
If you do not mash out then while you are sparging the enzymes keep working i,e; the malt profile of your beer will continue to change. If you mash out all enzym activity will stop and your malt character will be locked in place - I prefer this.

I can't understand why letting the enzymes keep working is a problem anyway. Surely they will only keep working while there is starch to convert. I thought the idea was to have max enzyme activity until all the starch was converted so why would we want to stop that at any point? Maybe I need to do a side by side test and see if I can tell any diff between a mashout and non mashout. I cant imagine the malt character altering that much.

Im thinking the same thing SJW, if all the conversions are done, there is nothing left to convert into drier or sweeter wort...??

 

[goatherder]

Im thinking the same thing SJW, if all the conversions are done, there is nothing left to convert into drier or sweeter wort...??

Dextrins from alpha amylase action can still be broken into simple sugars by the beta. You may end up with a dryer beer than you intended if this happens. Raising the temp will denature the beta amylase and "fix" the wort composition.

 

[MHB]

There are a lot of other enzymes involved in a mash, other than just alpha and beta amylase.

Not only do you want to control the balance of sugars, the amount of FAN is very important to the head on the finished beer and to healthy yeast during the ferment.

Some do protein rests - nothing to do with alpha and beta amylase but it affects the beer, unless you have good well thought out reasons for not doing a mash out - why wouldnt you - and the higher temperature makes lautering easier to!

MHB

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

For the first time ever today, I mashed at 64degC in my anticipated final volume and mashed out at 70degC, dunk (batch) sparging with my expected grain absorption plus boil off. I got the boil off wrong by about 50% on my relatively unused half-batch system on which I was brewing a quarter-batch and added water before the first hop addition.

I normally get (using the Beer Smith Brewhouse Efficiency calculation) 80% efficiency. Today, I got 85%. I use the same way of determining the value, so let's ignore whether or not it is a good metric. I reckon I got an extra few percent and the *cough* 'only' change was raising the temperature as a 'mash-out'.

I don't know why it occurred exactly (and assume it is because of the mash-out in my BIAB system), but I do know that the extra extraction is worth having. I might have to see if I can replicate it tomorrow...

HTH.

Edit: ******** typing...

 

[///]

The reason we do not mash out is partly due to chasing extract, working with strong worts and strategic reasons involving low lipid dissolution.

The very British rule we follow is not to mash out, we are working with highly viscous worts, a deep bed and we need as much extract as we can get. We seek to leave no scrap left of extract behind on the deep beds of my home brew system or the 1200l plant we use.

Tooheys beer-bling system of 90,000 litres has a 30cm approx grain bed depth. But this is a mash mixer/lauter system not a mash tun. The 1200l system I use has approx 50cm and my HM approx 20cm and are mash tuns. There is a big difference, I am sure most HB systems and I know most Micro systems resemble a mash tun not a mash mixer/ lauter system. For the mash mixer/lauter tun the temp is increased as a 'mash out' to make the mash run quickly thru the shallow bed, a 30 minute tyoe run off. Most HB'ers I would say have a mash tun and a deep bed, and at least a 90 min run off....

A fine crush and quick run off can affect lipid and phenol pickup and thus increase the oxidative precursors downstream. Not so much an issue for HB'ers or myself as product goes quickly, but for a large brewery with stock in trade it is... hence pasturisation and other processes help.

So I guess it is all what you are trying to achieve. I look for good extract and bright worts and on both systems never need to recirc for more than a minute or 2. Before i start to wax lyrical about floating mashes and coarse crushes I had better sign off...

 

[tangent]

wax on...

 

[SJW]

Linky: http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing...4-12-07conn.mp3

edit: For the record, I batch sparge with no mash out. I skip the mashout to save having to heat up enough water to get to mashout temps. Saves time and energy for me. I have the kettle heating pretty much straight after first runnings, so this fixes the enzymes for me.

Thanks Scott/chris
That radio bit was tops. I guess I'm in the same boat as you in as much as even though I do mashout I sparge straight into my kettle that has heat on from the end of the first runnings. Just interesting to bounce this stuff around.

There are a lot of other enzymes involved in a mash, other than just alpha and beta amylase.

Not only do you want to control the balance of sugars, the amount of FAN is very important to the head on the finished beer and to healthy yeast during the ferment.

Some do protein rests - nothing to do with alpha and beta amylase but it affects the beer, unless you have good well thought out reasons for not doing a mash out - why wouldnt you - and the higher temperature makes lautering easier to!

MHB

Nice one Mark! I thought that was the case, and the way I see it, with doing a mashout at least thats less sparging I need to do. After reading Brewing Science or parts of, it says that there is still a lot of stuff that's going on in the mash process that has not been uncovered yet. So I think if we just use the ol K.I.S.S. method combined with "the what works for me" method we will all keep making good beer :super:

Steve

 

[SJW]

Dextrins from alpha amylase action can still be broken into simple sugars by the beta. You may end up with a dryer beer than you intended if this happens. Raising the temp will denature the beta amylase and "fix" the wort composition.

I wonder how this applies to those fellas who mash over night?

 

[matti]

Interesting!?
Only reason to mash over night is to get the acidity down to level suitable for full conversion.
This would only consist to about 5 % of total mash.

Then again, there are so many ways of making a beer that this one probabry needs its own thread.

Mashing overnight?

 

[Cortez The Killer]

There is a long thread about mashing over night - some people mash for up to 8-10 hours over night - quiet an interesting method if you are strapped for time

I mashed out when I did my first couple of batches, but didn't notice any difference in efficiency when I stopped.

Cheers

 

[berapnopod]

Only reason to mash over night is to get the acidity down to level suitable for full conversion.

The only reason? How about saves some time since you're not waiting for the mash to convert?

Anyway, for the record I Flatch sparge and always do a mash out.

For various reasons (eg. wife needs a lift somewhere, run out of gas) I have left the mash at 78C for times between 10 minutes and up to 2 hours. I went back through my log books and found a noisy, but reasonably
well defined correlation between time spent at mash out and efficiency. My efficiency has varied between 72 and 95%, but I only got over 90% when I had a mash out longer than an hour. Since I can't be bothered to wait an hour for a few extra efficiency points, I usually mash out for 10 minutes.

In summary, the longer the mash out, the better efficiency I get.

Berp.