Mashout V's No Mashout = ? Efficiency

[SJW]

In summary, the longer the mash out, the better efficiency I get.

Thats interesting <_< I have never encountered this phenomenon before. How would a longer mashout improve efficiency as all ezyme activity should be denatured if a correct temp mashout is done? I dont doubt what your saying just wondering if anyone else has noticed the same thing.

Steve

 

[Airgead]

Folks

I always mash out but only because my HLT is a tad under sized so by doing a 20 min mashout with around 5l I can top the urn back up and have just enough sparge water to get my volume without having to stop the sparge half way through to top the urn up.

Cheers
Dave

 

[The King of Spain]

Slightly off topic but I have stuggled with efficiency. I did a Bock on the weekend, I was targeting 1.070 and ended up with 1.060 which according to ProMash gives me an efficiency of just over 60%. DME to rescue (again).

I mashed for 1 hr. Started @66C and finished at 64C at a ratio of 2:8 to 1.

I did a mash out and then did a single batch sparge (measured temperature in the tun was 77C), gave it a good stir and drained after 10min. The volumes all worked with no water additions required.

Any comments? Should I consider a longer mash?

Here is the ProMash report:


% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
67.4 4.80 kg. Pilsener Germany 1.038 2
21.1 1.50 kg. Munich Malt Germany 1.037 8
3.8 0.27 kg. Melanoidin Malt 1.033 35
7.7 0.55 kg. Crystal 80L 1.033 80




Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
42.53 g. Hallertau Northern Brewer Whole 8.50 34.5 60 min.
7.09 g. Hallertau Hersbrucker Whole 4.75 1.6 15 min.
7.09 g. Hallertau Hersbrucker Whole 4.75 0.0 0 min.


Yeast
-----

S189


Water Profile
-------------

Rainwater 1 tsp of Calcium Chloride

 

[Mr Bond]

I mashed for 1 hr. Started @66C and finished at 64C at a ratio of 2:8 to 1.


Any comments? Should I consider a longer mash?

Try a 3:1 ratio and a 90 min mash.Thats my standard regime and its never let me down.

 

[matti]

Deave.
Single batch sparge??
Stir and rinse again maybe!?
Nothing wrong with longer mashes or proper equip and right PH,
etc, etc..

Luve DME lol

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Thats interesting <_< I have never encountered this phenomenon before. How would a longer mashout improve efficiency as all ezyme activity should be denatured if a correct temp mashout is done? I dont doubt what your saying just wondering if anyone else has noticed the same thing.

Steve

Got to agree with SJW.The science doesnt add up.But stranger things have happened at sea.Anyone like to explain this one ?May be just longer higher temp allows better sparge extraction.Urban myth no#.Myth busters were are you. :blink:

 

[Stuster]

Deaves, sounds like you are doing everything right so here are just some throws in the dark. How much water did you use all up? How much did you get in the kettle? Do you have any dead space in the mash tun? Do you have a mill or do you get it crushed from the LHBS?

 

[berapnopod]

Got to agree with SJW.The science doesnt add up.But stranger things have happened at sea.Anyone like to explain this one ?May be just longer higher temp allows better sparge extraction.Urban myth no#.Myth busters were are you. :blink:

GB, I *am* the Mythbuster! h34r:
I am just reporting the experimental evidence. As for an explanation, my only guess is that the long time at a higher temp helps dissolve out sugars that might normally be stuck in the grain matrix. Doesn't make 100% sense as I would expect any sugars to be in solution pretty much 100% at temps above 70C, but thats the best I have come up with so far.

Berp.

 

[berapnopod]

Slightly off topic but I have stuggled with efficiency. I did a Bock on the weekend, I was targeting 1.070 and ended up with 1.060 which according to ProMash gives me an efficiency of just over 60%. DME to rescue (again).

I mashed for 1 hr. Started @66C and finished at 64C at a ratio of 2:8 to 1.

Others have made good suggestions on what to check, like your grain crush etc.

I wanted to point out that a mash temp of 66C, whilst normally OK is perilously close to the malt gelatinisation (?) temperature at 65C. Basically, if you never get your mash above 65C, the grain starches will not dissolve proerly and will not be available for conversion. So another possibility is to check your themometer and make sure its not reading a couple of degrees high.

Berp.

 

[The King of Spain]

I wanted to point out that a mash temp of 66C, whilst normally OK is perilously close to the malt gelatinisation (?) temperature at 65C. Basically, if you never get your mash above 65C, the grain starches will not dissolve proerly and will not be available for conversion. So another possibility is to check your themometer and make sure its not reading a couple of degrees high.

Thanks berapnopod and stuster

From memory (calcs on another PC) I back calculate volumes working on water losses to grain (1L/kg) so in this case 7.0L, 3L left with in the boiler with protein haze, and a small amount to hops (cant remember, not much say 0.5L). So the mash was initialy done with with 20L, then a single batch sparge with the volume required to give me 23L into the fermenter which was 24L.

Ross crushes the grain for me so I don't reckon I have any problems there.

I will try a longer mash. I am interested by berapnopds comments above. I often mash my ales at 65C and the temp never gets above that. Are these starches released and then dissolved with a mashout where the grain is at 77C. Maybe thats the angle on the longer times allowed for longer mashout??

Sound like some google time comming up....

 

[tangent]

I was targeting 1.070 and ended up with 1.060 which according to ProMash gives me an efficiency of just over 60%. DME to rescue (again).

i'd rather have a 1.060 beer with no DME

 

[SJW]

I wanted to point out that a mash temp of 66C, whilst normally OK is perilously close to the malt gelatinisation (?) temperature at 65C. Basically, if you never get your mash above 65C, the grain starches will not dissolve proerly and will not be available for conversion. So another possibility is to check your themometer and make sure its not reading a couple of degrees high.

Berp.

Is this a fact? :huh:
This is another thing I have never heard of before. As I have done some very cools mash's in the past, at 62 degC with good efficiencies. But knowing my brewing style back then I probably did a mashout. If the above statement is true would this be the magic reason for a mashout? After listening to "04-12-07 Basic Brewing Radio - Batch Sparging with Denny Conn" on http://www.podcastdirectory.com/podcasts/2088 I dont bother with a mashout, especially as I am doing batch sparging.
I thought it would be quite acceptable to do a mash in the low 60's for better Beta-amylase starch conversion for more highly fermentable wort?
Even if u did not do a mashout with such a cool mash if your sparge water was at the correct temp i.e. 77 degC would'nt this disolve the already converted sugar thus improving the efficiency?

Steve

 

[tangent]

maybe your mashout is in fact a beta rest, so you're getting alpha and beta rests, resulting in a more fermentable wort.

 

[Ross]

I wanted to point out that a mash temp of 66C, whilst normally OK is perilously close to the malt gelatinisation (?) temperature at 65C. Basically, if you never get your mash above 65C, the grain starches will not dissolve proerly and will not be available for conversion. So another possibility is to check your themometer and make sure its not reading a couple of degrees high.

Berp.

I do plenty of brews at 63c & the efficiency doesn't alter one bit. I cant see how this would be accountable for the low yields at all.
I get consitant 85% on a 5% brew. That's 26L of 1052 wort from 5kg of grain.
When batch sparging, I add water to get 2 equal runoffs. 1st addition is added at 98c which brings the mash up to approx 78c, give it a good mix, recirculate, & run off into the kettle as fast as the grain bed allows. The second water addition is allowed to naturally cool while the 1st sparge is happening, so it's at approx 85c when added, this again brings the mash temp up to approx 78c. The main factor in mash efficiency I've found is having sufficient hot sparge water to rinse out the sugars, which means following with a good 90 mins hard boil.

cheers Ross

 

[SJW]

The main factor in mash efficiency I've found is having sufficient hot sparge water to rinse out the sugars, which means following with a good 90 mins hard boil.

I would have to agree 100% Ross. Thats what I found. I tend to mash with half the water and sparge with the other half over two equal runoffs. And whether or not I mashout I raise the sparge water temp as required.

Steve

 

[berapnopod]

WRT mash gelatinisation and efficiency, I got my original information from three posts by Steve Alexander on HBD ("-S"), which can be found here.

Sounds like others here are doing fine with lower mash temps, and a second reading of the above suggests that gelatinisation can occur at temps below 65C, but at a slower rate. I am just not sure what that rate is.

The point of getting your mash above this temp is that some of the malt is not available to the enzymes to be broken down into sugars. This is because it is wrapped up in the starch matrix of the grain. Theoretically, if you mash too low and don't achieve gelatinisation, but then do a mash out, you will end up with a starchy wort which will give you low attenuation in your wort. But as I say above, if people are working fine at mash temps below 65C, then they must be achieving gelatinisation over the period of the mash.

That or their thermometers are reading a few degrees too low h34r:

Berp.

 

[SJW]

The point of getting your mash above this temp is that some of the malt is not available to the enzymes to be broken down into sugars. This is because it is wrapped up in the starch matrix of the grain. Theoretically, if you mash too low and don't achieve gelatinisation, but then do a mash out, you will end up with a starchy wort which will give you low attenuation in your wort. But as I say above, if people are working fine at mash temps below 65C, then they must be achieving gelatinisation over the period of the mash.

That or their thermometers are reading a few degrees too low

Berp.

Point taken

 

[Hashie]

Just want to throw my 2 cents into the debate.

I made an Australian dark ale yesterday with a 60 minute mash out at 76 degrees.

First, I BIAB, I usually do a 60 minute mash @66 degrees + a mash out for 20 minutes at 76 degrees. I weigh and crush my own grain with a 'Carona' style mill (but not for to much longer) and using the above method, consistently get 73-75%.

Yesterday, with the longer mash out my efficiency went up to 80%. To me, that is a significant improvement. The only difference in my brew day was a longer mash out.

 

[argon]

I do plenty of brews at 63c & the efficiency doesn't alter one bit. I cant see how this would be accountable for the low yields at all.
I get consitant 85% on a 5% brew. That's 26L of 1052 wort from 5kg of grain.
When batch sparging, I add water to get 2 equal runoffs. 1st addition is added at 98c which brings the mash up to approx 78c, give it a good mix, recirculate, & run off into the kettle as fast as the grain bed allows. The second water addition is allowed to naturally cool while the 1st sparge is happening, so it's at approx 85c when added, this again brings the mash temp up to approx 78c. The main factor in mash efficiency I've found is having sufficient hot sparge water to rinse out the sugars, which means following with a good 90 mins hard boil.

cheers Ross

Digging up an old thread here... but wanted to share my experience from yesterday in relation to skipping a mashout step.

I'd been doing some reading recently on the effectiveness and necessity of doing a mashout when batch sparging. After reading the above yesterday, during a mash, i decided to forgo the mashout and just sparge with hotter water.

Essentially i did as Ross has outlined above, although in my system i only required 90C water for sparging. I drained the kettle and applied heat to first runnings to bring it up into mashout temps (approx 78C). I then conducted an equal 2 part sparge with 90C water. The first sparge bumped the grain bed from 66C to 78C. The second kept it there. By the time lautering was complete i had already come to the boil.

So i still denatured all the enzymes and had the grain bed in the range of a mashout. Probably saved myself a good 30 mins on the brewday. Actually hit 85% mash efficiency into kettle. I don't think i'll ever be going back to a separate mashout step.

 

[bradsbrew]

When batch sparging, I add water to get 2 equal runoffs. 1st addition is added at 98c which brings the mash up to approx 78c, give it a good mix, recirculate, & run off into the kettle as fast as the grain bed allows. The second water addition is allowed to naturally cool while the 1st sparge is happening, so it's at approx 85c when added, this again brings the mash temp up to approx 78c. The main factor in mash efficiency I've found is having sufficient hot sparge water to rinse out the sugars, which means following with a good 90 mins hard boil.

cheers Ross

This is pretty much the way I do it as well. I have consistently got 85% this way and since using the pera pump to recirc the mash for 5 min before first run-off I have bumped that up to 90%. I figure that if the rambo is on low that is denaturing the enzymes as the first runn off hits the kettle. And by the time I finish running off the last sparge, with the perastaltic pump, the 80 odd Litres are just coming to the boil.

Cheers