Mashout Decoction

[aaronpetersen]

I've been reading about decoctions as I'm thinking of having a go at one when I do my next Pilsner. The mashout decoction seems the easiest and least time consuming so I thought I would start with that. From what I've read, a mashout decoction should be very thin with some sources saying only to pull liquid and leave all the grain behind.
First question: why a thin pull?
Second question: if there's no grain in the decoction then what's the point? Obviously it can be used for reaching mashout temp, but will it help with those nice malty decoction flavours that I want?

 

[Crusty]

I've been reading about decoctions as I'm thinking of having a go at one when I do my next Pilsner. The mashout decoction seems the easiest and least time consuming so I thought I would start with that. From what I've read, a mashout decoction should be very thin with some sources saying only to pull liquid and leave all the grain behind.
First question: why a thin pull?
Second question: if there's no grain in the decoction then what's the point? Obviously it can be used for reaching mashout temp, but will it help with those nice malty decoction flavours that I want?

I toyed with with the same idea in the past but after making over a dozen different All Grain beers with a simple single infusion & a brewhouse efficiency of 80%+, I don't think it's worth the hassle. I have a PID Herms setup & this certainly makes decotions & step mashing achievable but the malts we use these days are so highly modified that I think it's a step that's becoming less popular these days. Each to their own though & some recipes may call for this step but I'm sticking with my simple routine. If you do do one, let us know what you thought of the process & of course, the final product.

 

[Jim Botla]

I used to do decoction mashouts regularly and I just pulled about a third of the mash out after about an hour brought it to the boil let it boil till my 90 minute

mash was complete then reintroduced it to the mash and continued as normal.

I didn't target grain or liquid just took an even mix, stirring constantly to avoid scorching the grain. I enjoyed the flavour and think it's worth having a go at.

I stopped doing it because I started doing bigger batches and didn't think it was worth the extra effort, it's different but not necessarily better.

Cheers Jim

 

[sim]

I've been reading about decoctions as I'm thinking of having a go at one when I do my next Pilsner. The mashout decoction seems the easiest and least time consuming so I thought I would start with that. From what I've read, a mashout decoction should be very thin with some sources saying only to pull liquid and leave all the grain behind.
First question: why a thin pull?
Second question: if there's no grain in the decoction then what's the point? Obviously it can be used for reaching mashout temp, but will it help with those nice malty decoction flavours that I want?

The thin decoction is mainly for raising temperature to mashout. iv noticed there is some clarity effects aswell - boiling the thin decoct coagulates protiens which then get left behind in the mash not in the boiler. i think there is something to it.

thick decoctions arent that troublesome either. just dont leave the stove, keep stirring, or the beer gods will punish you for your neglect.

who knows whether its all worth it...


sim

 

[sim]

i would think you would want to avoid grain in the thin decoctions for the same reason you dont want it in the boil - tannin extraction. its gotta be either thick or thin.


sim

 

[Effect]

i would think you would want to avoid grain in the thin decoctions for the same reason you dont want it in the boil - tannin extraction. its gotta be either thick or thin.


sim

Have a read of some text about decoctions and you will find that you won't extract tannins with a decoction mate.

 

[egolds77]

Check this out to answer your questions

http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter16-4.html

Have fun

 

[sim]

Have a read of some text about decoctions and you will find that you won't extract tannins with a decoction mate.

ive got a fairly good idea, for the moment. but if any particularly thorough sources spring to mind you should share them here.

as it occurs to me ...you can extract tannins if the pH is high, and this occours if there isnt enough grain to buffer it. So to simplify things, to me, its really an all or nothing kinda thing - iether youve got alot of grain in there which will buffer the pH, or none which wont contribute tannins because of it not being boiled.

and what prompted me to make that descision is, and i dont mean to re-invent such a crusty old wheel or anything, i think cooking the grain when your aiming for mashout isnt such a good idea.


sim

 

[manticle]

To answer OP: decoctions to me are worth the hassle and the hassle really isn't that much of a hassle.

I think you'll get more flavour difference from a thicker decoction at the beginning but am prepared to be corrected. If you do go for thick at beginning, rest the grains at mash temp for 20 minutes first (or remove portion 20 minutes in if you can keep temp inside your tun where you want it while doing so).

 

[brettprevans]

God there is some bad info being tossed around in this thread. Crusty is right

Decoction is a step process. Sure u can boil ur grain and it will provide a bigger temp jump but U don't want to do that. Bring it up near boil ok but don't boil.

Now despite what others have said, if u read a 'text' book on decoction mashing you'll see that thick mash is normally called for as it has a greater thermal mass than a thin liquid mash. You also run less risk if caramelizing the wort with a thick mash.

Nothing wrong with decoction for mash out. In fact it can be beneficial as you've got some denaturing going on earlier than just in the boil. Now of course any method of mash out will do this but decocting does it quicker.

Decoctions are great for all sorts of temps rises if u don't have another heating source ie missing mash temp.

Read up and utilize a great technique

 

[manticle]

Everything I've ever read suggests boiling (gently with constant stirring) for a decent length of time and moving from thick mash to thin, depending on numbers of steps.

http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?t...coction_Mashing

 

[Rotgut]

Everything I've ever read suggests boiling (gently with constant stirring) for a decent length of time and moving from thick mash to thin, depending on numbers of steps.

http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?t...coction_Mashing

Good link Manticle, thanks!

 

[aaronpetersen]

i think cooking the grain when your aiming for mashout isnt such a good idea.

sim

Can you elaborate on why this isn't a good idea?

 

[aaronpetersen]

To answer OP: decoctions to me are worth the hassle and the hassle really isn't that much of a hassle.

I think you'll get more flavour difference from a thicker decoction at the beginning but am prepared to be corrected. If you do go for thick at beginning, rest the grains at mash temp for 20 minutes first (or remove portion 20 minutes in if you can keep temp inside your tun where you want it while doing so).

Thanks Manticle. I've just been reading a thread of yours on step mashing lagers [topic="46676"](link)[/topic] and like the method you used. It looks simple enough for me to have a go. I might replace the mashout infusion with an extra decoction though.

 

[dr K]

I am constantly amused at some of the crap that springs out of busted sewage pipes.
Thin decoction????
Lets go back to real really really basics
When you mash you want to convert the grain starches to sugars. Yes?
Enzymes present in the malted grain (alpha and beta amylase) do this . Yes?
These enzymes work between about 60 and 70C, sub 60 bugger all, post 70 they denature (each to their own regime this is a generality), the reason for a mash out is that it destroys, kills, wipes out the enzymes.
Hang on a minute, the grain and contained enzymes has already been heated well above 70C in the kilning process, so why have the the enzymes not been killed, wiped out or destroyed?
Simple, its all got to do with enzyme activity and substrate and without going into boring detail, the more liquid the lower the denaturing temp of the enzymes.
When you decoct, if you decoct correctly, you leave the enzyme rich liquor behind and pull only a thick mash, which, if you decoct correctly needs to be well and truly boiled, probably for up to 20 minutes, you ahve to stir, you have to stop burning and you ahve to be carefull of NZ like boiling mudpools.
I have no idea what is meant by a mashout decoction (unless it is after a series of earlier decoctions as stand alone it is not a decoction but a mashout, the value of which is fragile at best.
K

 

[mh971]

I am constantly amused at some of the crap that springs out of busted sewage pipes.
Thin decoction????
Lets go back to real really really basics
When you mash you want to convert the grain starches to sugars. Yes?
Enzymes present in the malted grain (alpha and beta amylase) do this . Yes?
These enzymes work between about 60 and 70C, sub 60 bugger all, post 70 they denature (each to their own regime this is a generality), the reason for a mash out is that it destroys, kills, wipes out the enzymes.
Hang on a minute, the grain and contained enzymes has already been heated well above 70C in the kilning process, so why have the the enzymes not been killed, wiped out or destroyed?
Simple, its all got to do with enzyme activity and substrate and without going into boring detail, the more liquid the lower the denaturing temp of the enzymes.
When you decoct, if you decoct correctly, you leave the enzyme rich liquor behind and pull only a thick mash, which, if you decoct correctly needs to be well and truly boiled, probably for up to 20 minutes, you ahve to stir, you have to stop burning and you ahve to be carefull of NZ like boiling mudpools.
I have no idea what is meant by a mashout decoction (unless it is after a series of earlier decoctions as stand alone it is not a decoction but a mashout, the value of which is fragile at best.
K

I am constantly amused at why so much good information on here has to be preceded by 2 lines of dick measuring and fighting words.

Yes some of you guys are highly read/trained/interested/knowledgeble/hilariously dry/curiously funny. However, as you are so learned you must also know that your good information gets in deeper, spreads wider and gains you more respect when it is provided without the "I am greater than thou" initial address.

Incorrect information will always appear on forums like this as people learn themselves and try to help others skip a step in their learning curve, it's not a big deal unless it's life threatening. Whats at stake here, $30 worth of ingredients, and few hours of experience. The man that never made a mistake, never made anything.

My idea of a forum is a means to spread knowledge and share information, if I wanted to punch on, i'd get to the local and get in the face of someone or go to the gym. Why create antogonism on a community forum, especially when it potentially degrades the interest in your often correct and valuable information to those that may require it most.

Cheers
Mick

 

[Effect]

ive got a fairly good idea, for the moment. but if any particularly thorough sources spring to mind you should share them here.

Have you had a read of 'brewing lager beer'? Link

Has a great write up on all things decoction in there.

Cheers
Phil

 

[sim]

Can you elaborate on why this isn't a good idea?

perhaps vaugely off topic -
-- cue edvard grieg morning mood --

...a fresh new day. We've all had a chance to have a beer and a sleep.

my appologies if id got anyone a bit hot under the collar, i confess i got a bit that way feeling i was unnecessarily having the book thrown at me. But, Phil, cheers mate, there is a book id happily have thrown at me, have been meaning to get a hold of it actually. Theres alot of stuff going on in decoctions, i can toally appreciate that, and they tend to be pretty ongoingly argued, for some reason...

getting back onto Aaron's question about a "mashout" decoction, a while ago i had also read somewhere the "hold back the grain complety for 'thin' decoctions", albiet it could have been anywhere amoungst the worldly and wild web of ideas. and this makes sense to me if your not going to do any of the other decoctions because starch that is released from the grain through this one and only decoction doesnt then have the chance to be worked on by enzymes (because your now at mashout). So if you're only going to do one decoction up to mashout my two cents is dont put any grain in there, just liquid. thoughts?

perhaps what sparked such 'what decoctions are' and who's got the biggest debate is that maybe to some this 'thin without grain' ought not be considered a decoction? in my mind it is. perhaps i wasnt being clear, perhaps it was just good old "hell what is this forum coming to when people think this or that about brewing" responses. At any rate i just wanted to shed light on Aaron's first question, from my own experience. I dont want to perpetuate shitty advice, so iv clarified my comments.

cheers,
sim

 

[sim]

To answer OP: decoctions to me are worth the hassle and the hassle really isn't that much of a hassle.

i agree, its a hobby not a hassle


sim

 

[Effect]

i agree, its a hobby not a hassle


sim

I agree. I do a thin decoction mash out EVERY brew day. It is just part of my regime and has been for the majority (3/4) of my batches.

Cheers
Phil