Mash Times

[jasonharley]

You'll find that adding Ca to your mash will improve your efficiency (and clarity of your wort). Use 50-100ppm in your mash as either CaCl or CaSO4 - CaCl accentuates malt character and CaSO4 accentuates hop bitterness - often nice too use a balance of both. My efficiency improved dramatically when i started to use the right amount of Ca.

What was your increase in efficiency? Was it above 75%?

5 eyes

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I'm getting to 70%, that's what I use in my recipes but feel like I've got to work a bit to get there with extra stirring when I check at 60m, find out I'm short of target OG and then mash for another 30m. The bag I'm using is the big CB (not voile) bag, how much difference does the bag material make?

It might be making none, or it might be the entirety of the problem. If you were for instance using a voile bag made in the shape and size recommended in the main BIAB thread - i would be confident saying the bag was not your problem. With the craftbrewer bag, I'm not.

Add the calcium though and see what happens, unless you are silly with it, a bit of calcium is almost always good for your brew.

You talk about 70% - measured where? In the kettle, in the fermenter, in package? The figure means nothing without a bit more context. And you dont give us much information about your technique either. Gie us a quick (but thorough) potted version of your system and method and let us see if there is anything missing.

If you are taking a long time to convert... Then my main suspiscion is (as others) water chemistry and or or temperature measurement.

 

[kevin_smevin]

What was your increase in efficiency? Was it above 75%?

5 eyes

Yeah, I'm getting 85% most times, sometimes a bit higher. I dont BIAB though so the numbers aren't really applicable. I just mentioned it because it improved my efficiency, so should help BIAB too

 

[ashley_leask]

OK here's a summary of my gear and process:

I'm using a 40L concealed element Crown urn, using hte Craft Brewer bag for the grain, hopsock suspended during the boil where all hop additions go and I take it out at flameout. Use a stainless steel paint stirrer (based on BribieG's recommendation, much easier than the spoon). For temp I'm using a digital cooking thermometer, I tested against ice water and boiling water when I bought it (only 3 months ago) and it is as accurate as it should be (+/- 1C). The urn is lagged with a camping mat, and I sit a circle of the same material wrapped in foil on top of the mash before I put the urn lid on. I lose about 1-1.5C per hour.

Process has been the same for these two brews, here it is:

1. Get required water volume into urn by transferring in cube. Water comes out of the laundry hot tap at 60C. I've been using weight (1L =1kg) to get the water volume by weighing on digital scales and subtracting the weight of the cube (1.4 kg)

2. Set up the bag in the kettle, add 1 tablespoon 5.2 ph stabiliser and mash in when I have got to 2.5C above the target temp (that's how much heat I lose), using the paint stirrer making sure I break up any dough balls etc.

3. Cover as above and wait 60m, then open up and stir everything up and take a glass full from the top (outside the bag so it's not full of grain) for hydrometer measurement.

4. Swear because it's 5 or 6 points off, turn on the heat again to bring back up to temp while stirring then cover again and leave for another 30m.

5. Measure again, it's OK this time (for the 2nd brew anyway, first one was still off, but as I said earlier the grain was a bit old), stir while getting up to mashout temp, then hoist the bag, drain & squeeze while it's coming up to boiling.

My 70% figure is into the fermenter (slightly more for the one below), but if I stopped the mash at 60m it would only be about 65%

 

[Thirsty Boy]

70% into the fermenter isn't low - you are just expecting too much. 87% into the boiler isn't just acceptable, its bordering on unbeleivably good. Your process & current efficiency says to me that you are pretty much doing everything right and by far your biggest efficiency gains will be made by attempting to reduce the amount of wort you lose to trub.

Try not taking the gravity measurement till after you raise to mashout temps... I suspect you will find that in the process of going up to 76-78 with stirring, you will achieve most if not all of what you would get mashing for an extra half hour anyway. I dont take my "pre-boil" gravity till after the wort has already come to the boil and been going for a minute or so. Then its heat off, grab the sample, heat back on. This ensures that the wort is well mixed and no further enZyme action can change the amount or type of sugar i am measuring. The measurement is truly pre-boil, my boil timer starts immediately after the sample is taken. Your way - i would actually be very surprised if you aren't getting a very slight Increase in gravity between your measurement and the start of your boil.

You should probably be getting full conversion faster than that though - so whack in the calcium and see what happens. Aside from that and trying doing your mashout before you take your measurement, i suggest you do nothing at all. At worst you are experiencing one of the reasons why the guide recommends a 90min mash - such high L:G ratios have the potential to be a less than ideal mashing environment. At best, your Mash/Lauter efficiency is stunningly good so you actually dont have a problem of any description in the first place.

TB

 

[ashley_leask]

...your biggest efficiency gains will be made by attempting to reduce the amount of wort you lose to trub.

There's a couple of things I'm going to try with this, whirlpooling and if that doesn't do the trick I'll try and get hold of some Brewbrite and see if that helps.

Try not taking the gravity measurement till after you raise to mashout temps...

I see your point here, I'll trust the process and take the measurement as the boil starts and see if that works out.

You should probably be getting full conversion faster than that though - so whack in the calcium and see what happens.

I'll try this as well, is gypsum the best form to use?

Thanks for the feedback, it's appreciated. Apart from the effeciency into the fermenter figure, I had no idea what the rest of those figures should look like, good to know I'm mostly on the right track. :icon_cheers:

Ash.

 

[Phoney]

I'll try this as well, is gypsum the best form to use?

I use a combination of Calcium Sulfate (gypsum) and Calcium Chloride. Checkout the EZ water calculator, find out your local water profile from this website, plug in the figures and have a play with it to figure out what you need.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Do try whirlpooling, you only need a litre extra to make a big difference... You also suggested earlier that you might try less whirlfloc to try and get a more compact break - i think that will be a worthwhile thing to experiment with, whirlfloc can make your wort clearer, but too much can make your trub "fluffy". Brew brite give a different sort of break and while it is dramatic in its action.. I'm not sure that i think it gives a more compact trub, or that it helps form a stable whirlpool cone any more effectively than normal whirlfloc type products.

I also suggest you try a different bag. I do not know for certain about the craftbrewer bags, but all the other "cheap" bags like the one bribie showed from CB - they all have what i would consider to be too course a mesh for BIAB. I think that part of the problem is that you are simply letting too much stuff through your bag. Try the "big circle" of voile to see if that helps, it wont cost more than $5ish for enough material. Then if it does help, you can try to track someone down to make a bag for you out of the material. The big circle format works perfectly well, i've done quite a few that way myself - but a properly shaped bag with elastic or a drawstring makes life a bit easier froma physical handling perspective.

For starters - go with a teaspoon of gypsum for hoppier more bitter beers where you want the hops to shine - a teaspoon of calcium chloride in beers where you want to highlight maltiness or malt sweetness. And half a teaspoon of each if the beer is a balanced effort between the two. After that, devote a chunk of your life to reading about water chemistry, and then after years of dicking about with scales, salts, spreadsheets, nomographs, chemical equations and stuff like that. You'll most likely end up back at a teaspoon of one or the other of the first two things I mentioned.

TB

 

[ashley_leask]

I also suggest you try a different bag. I do not know for certain about the craftbrewer bags, but all the other "cheap" bags like the one bribie showed from CB - they all have what i would consider to be too course a mesh for BIAB. I think that part of the problem is that you are simply letting too much stuff through your bag. Try the "big circle" of voile to see if that helps, it wont cost more than $5ish for enough material. Then if it does help, you can try to track someone down to make a bag for you out of the material. The big circle format works perfectly well, i've done quite a few that way myself - but a properly shaped bag with elastic or a drawstring makes life a bit easier froma physical handling perspective.

For starters - go with a teaspoon of gypsum for hoppier more bitter beers where you want the hops to shine - a teaspoon of calcium chloride in beers where you want to highlight maltiness or malt sweetness. And half a teaspoon of each if the beer is a balanced effort between the two. After that, devote a chunk of your life to reading about water chemistry, and then after years of dicking about with scales, salts, spreadsheets, nomographs, chemical equations and stuff like that. You'll most likely end up back at a teaspoon of one or the other of the first two things I mentioned.

TB

I will try the bag, was starting to think there's just too much "stuff" in the wort, but haven't brewed AG with any other technique, or brewed with anyone else, so didn't have anything to reference against. Think I'll bypass the chemistry course then and just keep my teaspoons handy.

Cheers,

Ash

 

[Bada Bing Brewery]

Do try whirlpooling, you only need a litre extra to make a big difference... You also suggested earlier that you might try less whirlfloc to try and get a more compact break - i think that will be a worthwhile thing to experiment with, whirlfloc can make your wort clearer, but too much can make your trub "fluffy". Brew brite give a different sort of break and while it is dramatic in its action.. I'm not sure that i think it gives a more compact trub, or that it helps form a stable whirlpool cone any more effectively than normal whirlfloc type products.

I also suggest you try a different bag. I do not know for certain about the craftbrewer bags, but all the other "cheap" bags like the one bribie showed from CB - they all have what i would consider to be too course a mesh for BIAB. I think that part of the problem is that you are simply letting too much stuff through your bag. Try the "big circle" of voile to see if that helps, it wont cost more than $5ish for enough material. Then if it does help, you can try to track someone down to make a bag for you out of the material. The big circle format works perfectly well, i've done quite a few that way myself - but a properly shaped bag with elastic or a drawstring makes life a bit easier froma physical handling perspective.

For starters - go with a teaspoon of gypsum for hoppier more bitter beers where you want the hops to shine - a teaspoon of calcium chloride in beers where you want to highlight maltiness or malt sweetness. And half a teaspoon of each if the beer is a balanced effort between the two. After that, devote a chunk of your life to reading about water chemistry, and then after years of dicking about with scales, salts, spreadsheets, nomographs, chemical equations and stuff like that. You'll most likely end up back at a teaspoon of one or the other of the first two things I mentioned.

TB

Thank you TB - very useful info and I will try the half and half method.
Cheers
BBB

 

[ashley_leask]

So brewed again last Thursday and changed two of the variables from the previous brew. Used a brand new bag made of the proper voile material, and whirlpooled for about 3 minutes at flameout then put the lid back on for 15 minutes and let it settle. I'd also changed the tap from the stock Crown tap to a ball lock, but pretty sure that didn't matter. :unsure:

I think the finer mesh bag made a huge difference in the volume of trub left over. There was much less material left and it had collected pretty nicely in the centre of the urn even after only whirlpooling for a couple of minutes.

Next thing I do will be to put together a little pickup tube to collect the wort from lower than tap level right on the wall of the urn I think I'll be set.

Until I think of something else.

On the conversion question, followed TB's advice and added a tsp of gypsum to the mash (it's an APA), did a reading at 60m (1.042) went straight head and raised to mashout etc. Took another reading just as it came to the boil and it was 1.046, against the target of 1.043 so happy with that. Also think the extra Ca helped as I brewed this same recipe, same mash temp 3 weeks ago and the 60m reading was 1.038.