March 809hs Query

[roller997]

I bought one of these commonly used pumps second hand from a fellow brewer less than a month ago, hooked it up this weekend with some fittings, silicone to push mash liquor through a stainless HE coil back up to the same mash tun. To my surprise, the setup was unable to even circulate water, so I aborted the idea of enjoying a HERMS system and went back to manual mashing.

I primed the pump by filling the Mash tun with hot water which fed the pump through my false bottom. The only thing to note is that the silicone is 1/2" internal diameter but there is a short hose which has an outer diameter that fits inside the silicone hose so the water supply would be a bit less than full 1/2" bore.

I had hoped that by using gravity from the mash tun, the water would already have a bit of pressure behind it so the pump could achieve the desired result. During my test, I needed the pump to push the water through 7 meters of fairly thick coiled stainless pipe (not the jockey box thin stuff - about the standard diameter for copper piping) and then up for about 80 cm. The water ever only made it about 20 cm past the top of the coil before it just lingered there.
I even raised the pump about 50cm higher (making sure there was more than enough water in the pipework) and it still couldn't get over beyond the original mark.

I haven't read anything which indicates that these pumps are so low powered. From what I read, they can generate enough pressure to overcome 2.5m of vertical rises so while there is resistance in the stainless coil, there was only 80cm of a vertical rise.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

Here is a (rather dodgy) drawing to show what the setup is like.

As I mentioned, hose is going from smaller diameter exiting the mash tun to the pump.
Pump has valve on it in case I need to slow it down in the future (yes, I did check that one and it was on open)
There is about a 15-20cm rise to get to the HE coil
Coil is about 7 meters and has similar / identical internal diameter to 1/2" copper pipe
From the HE coil exit, it is about 80cm to get to the top of the Mash tun.

 

[Sammus]

Are you 1000000% positive the pump is primed properly? They are a PITA to prime (well, they are when you first use them, you get the hang of it though).... If there is even a tiny airbubble in the line you get shocking cavitating and zero flow/head from the pump. If it's primed properly though, it should handle that easily. I used to pump through a long 1/4" copper coil upwards about a meter and it managed it fine. Have also done through 5m of 1/2" uphill with no qualms.... I reckon doubly triple check that its primed...there should just be a quiet hum from the motor...if it's not primed properly you can hear it cavitating, though perhaps the sound will be hard to recognize if you havent heard it run properly....

 

[NickB]

Priming issue would be my guess too. In my setup, to prime, I just open all valves used with the pump off and let gravity fill the pump body, then turn the pump on.

Might be worth noting I have the intlet mounted at the bottom of the pump, with the outlet at the top, so gravity helps out a bit

Cheers

 

[roller997]

Are you 1000000% positive the pump is primed properly? They are a PITA to prime (well, they are when you first use them, you get the hang of it though).... If there is even a tiny airbubble in the line you get shocking cavitating and zero flow/head from the pump. If it's primed properly though, it should handle that easily. I used to pump through a long 1/4" copper coil upwards about a meter and it managed it fine. Have also done through 5m of 1/2" uphill with no qualms.... I reckon doubly triple check that its primed...there should just be a quiet hum from the motor...if it's not primed properly you can hear it cavitating, though perhaps the sound will be hard to recognize if you havent heard it run properly....

Thanks for that - I might not have had it primed perfectly, so I will definately give that a go tomorrow night.
I was under the assumption that once the water started filling the hose on the outlet side and since the pump was at the lowest point I had assumed that it would have been primed but then I haven't run one of these before so it could be definately be an operator error this time.


Thanks

Roller

 

[roller997]

Priming issue would be my guess too. In my setup, to prime, I just open all valves used with the pump off and let gravity fill the pump body, then turn the pump on.

Might be worth noting I have the intlet mounted at the bottom of the pump, with the outlet at the top, so gravity helps out a bit

Cheers

Mine is mounted sideways so there is a chance that air bubbles get stuck inside the circular plastic body. I will try mounting it sideways.

Cheers

Roller

 

[malbur]

Mine is mounted sideways so there is a chance that air bubbles get stuck inside the circular plastic body. I will try mounting it sideways.

Cheers

Roller

Hi Roller, Ran my pump for the first time on Monday through me HE with the 8m SS coil, no problems with flow was working great.I actually used the tap to throttle back the flow as i was worried about channelling issues, i have my pump inlet at the bottom.

malbur

 

[roller997]

Hi Roller, Ran my pump for the first time on Monday through me HE with the 8m SS coil, no problems with flow was working great.I actually used the tap to throttle back the flow as i was worried about channelling issues, i have my pump inlet at the bottom.

malbur

Malburn,
Thanks for that - I didn't think it would be the coil length that would be an issue, however I thought it would be worthwhile to mention what the setup is.
Great coil by the way - How did you go with the HE and ramping through temperatures? Was there much difference between the water in the HE vessel and the output mash liquor temperature?

Also, just noticed that with my above post, I was meant to say that I will mount it so the inlet is at the bottom (rather than mounting it the way it is currently mounted).

Cheers

Roller

 

[mxd]

I had a similar "issue" with my pump (we actually may have bought them from the same person), so I stopped rather quickly then disconnected the out hose into HE, opened up the valves, let the wort flow into a bucket with gravity, then turned on the pump, still letting the wort flow into bucket. Then connected it all up, without an issue.

I think we just need to remember the pump is a PITA to prime.

 

[malbur]

Malburn,
Thanks for that - I didn't think it would be the coil length that would be an issue, however I thought it would be worthwhile to mention what the setup is.
Great coil by the way - How did you go with the HE and ramping through temperatures? Was there much difference between the water in the HE vessel and the output mash liquor temperature?

Also, just noticed that with my above post, I was meant to say that I will mount it so the inlet is at the bottom (rather than mounting it the way it is currently mounted).

Cheers

Roller

Not sure on outlet temp as i didn't measure it,
but with the BigW 7litre pot and the 8m coil in it, the pot took 5 1/2 litres of water to cover the coil and i was getting about 2 deg a minute ramp temp with 2000w element which i was happy with.
just need to insulate the piping better i think.

malbur.

 

[roller997]

Two degree ramping per minute is very impressive with a 2000 Watt element.
I am using about 8 liters of water in a pot which is SOOOO cheap that it is leaking from the handle mounts.... PITA - I only found the leak after installing 2 * 2400 Watt elements and testing for leaks as it never occurred to me that they manufacture pots that can only be filled to below the handle mounts. When I tested, there wasn't a drop that came out from the element mounts but there were a few drops coming from the side....
Hopefully I will get very fast ramping times along with the capability to boost the temperature of the wort before it hits the kettle.
I am looking forward to my next experiment with the pump and my HE.
Now I know that I need to be very certain that it is primed.

Cheers

Roller

 

[malbur]

Two degree ramping per minute is very impressive with a 2000 Watt element.
I am using about 8 liters of water in a pot which is SOOOO cheap that it is leaking from the handle mounts.... PITA - I only found the leak after installing 2 * 2400 Watt elements and testing for leaks as it never occurred to me that they manufacture pots that can only be filled to below the handle mounts. When I tested, there wasn't a drop that came out from the element mounts but there were a few drops coming from the side....
Hopefully I will get very fast ramping times along with the capability to boost the temperature of the wort before it hits the kettle.
I am looking forward to my next experiment with the pump and my HE.
Now I know that I need to be very certain that it is primed.

Cheers

Roller

Now thats a top quality pot :lol:
2X2400w elements wow that water is going to boil in seconds.

Malbur

 

[cdbrown]

I hope you run the system with just water a few times to allow the PID to calibrate itself properly or you'll end up heating the wort in the tube too much. Put some sealant around the handles and fill it up as much as you want.

 

[roller997]

Thanks for the advice.
The volume I am trying to achieve post boil will be 100 liters, hence the additional element(s). I still have to get some serious re-wiring done before I can fire up the proposed 2 * 2400 Watt lements in the HLT, the 2 elements in the HE and the 3 * 2200W elements in the kettle. As I am hoping to insulate the HLT very well so I can ideally share the two element power supply with the Kettle.

I haven't started using the elements or the PID as yet - I was testing the circulation of water first before starting to plug them in.

Cheers

Roller

 

[browndog]

Thanks for the advice.
The volume I am trying to achieve post boil will be 100 liters, hence the additional element(s). I still have to get some serious re-wiring done before I can fire up the proposed 2 * 2400 Watt lements in the HLT, the 2 elements in the HE and the 3 * 2200W elements in the kettle. As I am hoping to insulate the HLT very well so I can ideally share the two element power supply with the Kettle.

I haven't started using the elements or the PID as yet - I was testing the circulation of water first before starting to plug them in.

Cheers

Roller

That is some serious current. I had my sparky mate around to my place on the weekend to look at wiring up a circuit for my new electric brewery 2 X 2400W kettle, 1 X 2400W HX and 1 X 2400W HLT, this is going to require 2 X 20 amp circuits from the meter board. Also he told me that houses are generally restricted to 65amps due to the line in off the street.

cheers

Browndog

 

[roller997]

Browndog,
Yes, I am aware of the current requirements for the setup.
I am still trying to establish what my overall supply is as I have a couple of sparky friends and while they have suggested different supply currents to my mains, neither had the tool with them to pull the main supply fuse to confirm the actual rating.

I have had 2 * 2.5HP = 24Amp aircons + 2*1.5HP = 12Amp aircons + 0.75hp aircon running simultaneously in summer which should be close to 39 Amp in total. At the same time I had 3 fridges, a number of PC"s and other stuff so I suspect I might be OK if I brew without turning the aircons on. Not sure if the family will be happy to sweat for a few hours on Summer days....

In terms of having enough power, it might be a bit of touch and go. A power saving option I have thought of which still requires 2 * 20Amp is to setup a circuit which shares the power between HLT and HE with prioritiy being given to the HE and a circuit to share the power between HE and one of the kettle elements, where the HE also gets the priority since it has 9% more power than the pot element.

Should my plans fail and I trip the mains supply fuse, I will have to talk to the local supplier to see how much 3 phase power they would be able to supply me in a residential area. If I got at least 30 Amp per phase, I would be fine but the costs would be quite high and obviously I would prefer to avoid that.

Looking in my fusebox, I have a 32 Amp circuit for the Spa, 20 Amps for the Oven, 2 * 20 Amp plus 3 * 16 Amp for power circuits + 8 Amp light circuit. While they would never epxect them all to be fully utilized, I would hope that the electrican would have catered for the Spa as an extra over and above a standard household.


Cheers

Roller

 

[browndog]

Browndog,
Yes, I am aware of the current requirements for the setup.
I am still trying to establish what my overall supply is as I have a couple of sparky friends and while they have suggested different supply currents to my mains, neither had the tool with them to pull the main supply fuse to confirm the actual rating.

I have had 2 * 2.5HP = 24Amp aircons + 2*1.5HP = 12Amp aircons + 0.75hp aircon running simultaneously in summer which should be close to 39 Amp in total. At the same time I had 3 fridges, a number of PC"s and other stuff so I suspect I might be OK if I brew without turning the aircons on. Not sure if the family will be happy to sweat for a few hours on Summer days....

In terms of having enough power, it might be a bit of touch and go. A power saving option I have thought of which still requires 2 * 20Amp is to setup a circuit which shares the power between HLT and HE with prioritiy being given to the HE and a circuit to share the power between HE and one of the kettle elements, where the HE also gets the priority since it has 9% more power than the pot element.

Should my plans fail and I trip the mains supply fuse, I will have to talk to the local supplier to see how much 3 phase power they would be able to supply me in a residential area. If I got at least 30 Amp per phase, I would be fine but the costs would be quite high and obviously I would prefer to avoid that.

Looking in my fusebox, I have a 32 Amp circuit for the Spa, 20 Amps for the Oven, 2 * 20 Amp plus 3 * 16 Amp for power circuits + 8 Amp light circuit. While they would never epxect them all to be fully utilized, I would hope that the electrican would have catered for the Spa as an extra over and above a standard household.


Cheers

Roller

Good luck, my sparky mate told me under no circumstances should my missus use the oven when I am brewing.

 

[roller997]

Good luck, my sparky mate told me under no circumstances should my missus use the oven when I am brewing.

One option in solving that electrical contention issue by getting a Kamado style BBQ which is basically a really well insulated Webber BBQ that is very conservative with using the charcaol fuel. They are not cheap and I am not planning going anywhere near the Rolls Royce of kamado which is the Big Green Egg as they are twice the price of a Royal Kamado (fleabay) even when they are on special.

Such a device can keep temperatures from 100 degrees C to 300 degrees C for hours with just one load of charcoal. Once the charcoal is all lit, it burns really clean, so you can even bake cakes in it. A friend has one and he has made some brilliant spare ribs (5 hours at low temperatures), roasts, chooks, superb steaks, bread and very nice pizzas with it so far. Great little machines and I am looking at getting myself one down the track. This would keep the wife happy too as long as I get it lit and set to the desired temperature.

Ovens suck up quite a lot of power so it would definately be a consideration which would be cheaper than a 3 phase power upgrade and provide me with nice charcoal grilled food.
I am not sure if I can find a non electrical replacement for the Aircon and Spa heater however.....

 

[roller997]

In case someone stumbles accross this thread in the future - Priming was the key issue so thank everyone for highlighting that this would be the likely issue.

I held the pump so the outlet was on top to let any stray air bubbles escape and it worked fine.

Also, to ensure that the PITA factor is reduced I would recommend mounting the pump so its output is at the top and the input is at the bottom - That way, air is less likely to remain in the housing cavity.

 

[Sammus]

In case someone stumbles accross this thread in the future - Priming was the key issue so thank everyone for highlighting that this would be the likely issue.

I held the pump so the outlet was on top to let any stray air bubbles escape and it worked fine.

Also, to ensure that the PITA factor is reduced I would recommend mounting the pump so its output is at the top and the input is at the bottom - That way, air is less likely to remain in the housing cavity.

Good to hear it ended up working ok That mounting orientation I think is standard for most here. At least a few years ago when I got mine, any mention of mounting a march pump was often accompanied by the recommendation.

Those kamodo cookers look awesome... you say you friend has one, do you reckon with a decent fuel load in there they could (and are rated?) to get up to 500C?

 

[roller997]

Good to hear it ended up working ok That mounting orientation I think is standard for most here. At least a few years ago when I got mine, any mention of mounting a march pump was often accompanied by the recommendation.

Those kamodo cookers look awesome... you say you friend has one, do you reckon with a decent fuel load in there they could (and are rated?) to get up to 500C?

I don't think that 500C would be achievable (or at least not safe). On the Royal Kamado they have a warning on the thermostat which mentions anything over 750F (400C) is likely to damage the unit.
I suspect the Big Green Egg which is a better quality unit might not have this limitation, however 500C is quite a high temperature so I don't know if it is achievable. Last time the steaks were seared at 600F and they came out very nice and juicy so for me there wouldn't be much of a need to get beyond 700F / 370C for searing. Most things turn charcoal colour fairly quickly at that temperature.

Cheers

Roller