Making Sourdough Bread

[Katherine]

The Rye, date, caraway and coffee loaf did not last long at all... It was lovely I had a slice. It would be nice with cheese also. It was very dense but GOOD... I thought this post deserved a bump.

 

[ollave]

I have a question for those who brew andbake sourdough.

In mid April I was wondering about attending a sourdough baking workshop at Redbeard bakery in Trentham, VIC. The 6 hour workshop covers starters, flours, mixing, proving and shaping the dough etc. The thing is - I have heard from a friend that they spruke a 'yeast free kitchen' approach and claim that yeasties getting into your leven lead to offness & bad odours.

As a brewer, I am not really able (or willing) to ban yeasts from the kitchen. What do others think of this idea? Is there anything to it? If I do attend this workshop, is there anything I should bear in mind while they are talking about this? I want your opinions!

Cheers

Clean. Sterilise your work surfaces if you're fussy. There is no such thing as a yeast free kitchen (hello, wild yeastie beasties!) and if sourdough starters were that fragile, nobody would be able to bake anything with bakers yeast without contaminating their sourdough starter, or pour a bottle conditioned beer in the kitchen, and neither of those seem to be a practical problem.

I'd suggest you just keep your sourdough starter covered when you're not feeding it, try not to spill your brewing yeast into it, and relax and have a homebrew.

Cheers!

 

[notung]

Thanks ollave, that's the sort of 'relax Max' advice I was hoping for.

 

[Katherine]

Some more Sourdough out of Lates Kitchen... and this is our mixer when we do big batches...

 

[white.grant]

I haven't baked bread for years, but thanks to this thread, I fired up a starter last week and managed to bake a tasty wholemeal and rye loaf.



cheers

grant

 

[scott_penno]

OK. So I tried making a starter and it didn't quite work - never really rose much so after a week I tipped it. I used a mixture of unbleached wholemeal flour and white flour. A question for those that make yeast starters. Is it the yeast that live among the grain within the wholemeal flour that is supposed to be kicking this off or is it the yeast that floats around in the air?

sap.

 

[Airgead]

OK. So I tried making a starter and it didn't quite work - never really rose much so after a week I tipped it. I used a mixture of unbleached wholemeal flour and white flour. A question for those that make yeast starters. Is it the yeast that live among the grain within the wholemeal flour that is supposed to be kicking this off or is it the yeast that floats around in the air?

sap.

Both I think. There's wild yeast in the flour along with a bunch of lacto bacteria. These combine witht he wild yeast in the air.mI suspect that its mostly the stuff already present in the flour that is mostly responsible thought.

Cheers
Dave

 

[ollave]

OK. So I tried making a starter and it didn't quite work - never really rose much so after a week I tipped it. I used a mixture of unbleached wholemeal flour and white flour. A question for those that make yeast starters. Is it the yeast that live among the grain within the wholemeal flour that is supposed to be kicking this off or is it the yeast that floats around in the air?

That is a subject of some debate. It seems (to me, anyrate) that the source is the flour, but I've not seen any scientific proof to consider this absolutely certain.

A good guide to creating a sourdough starter is this one:

SourDom's How to make your own starter tutorial

If you follow those instructions I would be very surprised if you were not successful. You do need to expect the starter to smell bad at some point along the way, and to take a couple of weeks to be active enough to use for baking. (There are exceptions -- there are always exceptions -- but if you start with that as your expectation, you won't go far wrong.)

Edit: I wouldn't fuss too much about organic flour or rye flour. My starter was initiated with wholemeal flour, and out of date supermarket wholemeal flour at that. If that worked, most things will. I would only avoid white flour: I've seen enough reports of people having problems creating a starter from white flour that I wouldn't recommend it, and the one time I tried it was taking so long I gave up. When baking white loaves I just use a little (say a teaspoon) of my wholemeal starter, feed it up on white flour for a couple of days, and it works without fuss.

 

[pdilley]

Quick reply.

My Finnish Rye Sourdough starter made with milk for lacto bacilli is going great.

Had it in the fridge on the trip to the Gong, then left it for a week. Took it out and had a thick liquid layer on top. Dumped that, and most of the starter and added a tsp of sugar and some fresh flour, a splash of milk and some water and set it on the shelf to be at room temperature once more.

Been feeding it and dumping half as I could think about it off and on.

Its now very Finnish like as in very thick gooey not yet ropey elastic in nature, to gross you out like a wet cold sneeze and trying to clear up the gooey mess

Thats what I always see in the pictures. The smell is distinctly like cheese and actually quite yummy smelling. The colour is of hulled sesame tahini and is looking quite a lot like the finnish starter pictures I see online and at wikipedia so I'm chuffed. I'm sure it will be quite a while as it develops the deep sour flavours of traditional Finnish sourdough rye breads.

EDIT: Added picture of what starter is to look like from online posts about finnish sourdough rye starters.


EDIT2: The best starters are made from viili (a Finnish soured milk product)

Generally cultures from viili make a very active and very sour cultures and they start making good bread in about month. Skimmed milk + rye flour cultures produce milder flavour but they have taken about half a year to produce good bread.

Picture of viili, Finnish milk slime! Pretty much what my starter is doing which is why I'm chuffed.



Cheers,
Brewer Pete

 

[brettprevans]

time for some research/reassurance before I join the sourdough club.

assumptions
- starter fired up (I havent yet but will soon)
- has been fed up over a week or so and is in the fridge and is ready for baking use.
- Im wanting to create a kick ass multi-generation starter (ie not make a starter every time i make bread).

Questions
1. here comes feeding time. with most of the starter that you take out, do you make bread with it, or do you usually chuck it out?
2. come feeding time, do you normally stir in new food and then throw striaght back into fridge or leave out for a while?
3. say you have made the starter with various flours (ie rye, wheat etc - like in Doc's blog), do you keep feeding the starter that mix or doesnt it really matter? I assume you can feed it anything and it just adds to a cumulative lifelong flavour of the starter? or do you tend to feed it with whatever flour your wanting to make bread out of for the next batch?
4. im ready to make a loaf. how much of the starter do you normally use in the flour/water mix? ive read about 1tsp to 100gflour+100ml water mix. sounds right?
5. do you have a favourite or 'house' sourdough recipe you use for the loaf? KT & Llyodie im looking at you 2....
6. the less i feed the ongoing starter, the more sour it becomes yes? how long can I not feed it for until it is in trouble? the situation im thinking of is not making a loaf one week or two but not wanting to waste a couple hundred grams of flour each feeding time. all that wasted flour would start to add up.

thanks in advance.

 

[Katherine]

I guess last Friday was not the time to talk about bread.

House recipe... getting Lloydie to follow a recipe are you kidding (I do) he has the science of bread making down so its all in his head.

Our little dog ate our internet stick so no connection at home until tommorow. Ill get Lloydie to reply.

time for some research/reassurance before I join the sourdough club.

assumptions
- starter fired up (I havent yet but will soon)
- has been fed up over a week or so and is in the fridge and is ready for baking use.
- Im wanting to create a kick ass multi-generation starter (ie not make a starter every time i make bread).

Questions
1. here comes feeding time. with most of the starter that you take out, do you make bread with it, or do you usually chuck it out?
2. come feeding time, do you normally stir in new food and then throw striaght back into fridge or leave out for a while?
3. say you have made the starter with various flours (ie rye, wheat etc - like in Doc's blog), do you keep feeding the starter that mix or doesnt it really matter? I assume you can feed it anything and it just adds to a cumulative lifelong flavour of the starter? or do you tend to feed it with whatever flour your wanting to make bread out of for the next batch?
4. im ready to make a loaf. how much of the starter do you normally use in the flour/water mix? ive read about 1tsp to 100gflour+100ml water mix. sounds right?
5. do you have a favourite or 'house' sourdough recipe you use for the loaf? KT & Llyodie im looking at you 2....
6. the less i feed the ongoing starter, the more sour it becomes yes? how long can I not feed it for until it is in trouble? the situation im thinking of is not making a loaf one week or two but not wanting to waste a couple hundred grams of flour each feeding time. all that wasted flour would start to add up.

thanks in advance.

 

[brettprevans]

yeah i was going to ask laste friday but figured it wasnt the time (and kept forgetting).

poor doggy. at least he didnt eat any dough whilst it was proofing. thats bad. their guts act like a warm fermentor. they get drunk from the alc produced and the bread swells up in their guts ....>>>> trip to the vet and an expensive bill.

 

[Katherine]

:icon_offtopic: yeah no carbs for this little doggy... she is on a total natural diet, no canned meat. All raw meat, vege, fish, fish oil, flax, alfalfa powder and raw egg.

 

[LLoyd]

time for some research/reassurance before I join the sourdough club.

assumptions
- starter fired up (I havent yet but will soon)
- has been fed up over a week or so and is in the fridge and is ready for baking use.
- Im wanting to create a kick ass multi-generation starter (ie not make a starter every time i make bread).

Questions
1. here comes feeding time. with most of the starter that you take out, do you make bread with it, or do you usually chuck it out?
2. come feeding time, do you normally stir in new food and then throw striaght back into fridge or leave out for a while?
3. say you have made the starter with various flours (ie rye, wheat etc - like in Doc's blog), do you keep feeding the starter that mix or doesnt it really matter? I assume you can feed it anything and it just adds to a cumulative lifelong flavour of the starter? or do you tend to feed it with whatever flour your wanting to make bread out of for the next batch?
4. im ready to make a loaf. how much of the starter do you normally use in the flour/water mix? ive read about 1tsp to 100gflour+100ml water mix. sounds right?
5. do you have a favourite or 'house' sourdough recipe you use for the loaf? KT & Llyodie im looking at you 2....
6. the less i feed the ongoing starter, the more sour it becomes yes? how long can I not feed it for until it is in trouble? the situation im thinking of is not making a loaf one week or two but not wanting to waste a couple hundred grams of flour each feeding time. all that wasted flour would start to add up.

thanks in advance.

Yup.... Get Lloydie talking about bread and you're in for a boring night....

Glad you're still alive after your shocking behaviour last week (SWMBO)...

1. Rather than chucking it out, just add the food and build up towards baking day. Contrary to popular belief (chuck HALF of it away) you only need to refresh about ten percent of your starter. This gives MORE of your flour MORE time to ferment, and saves wastage..

2. Either way is good. I usually leave it out for a bit but that's just me spoiling my yeasties..

3. All of the above mate! Different flours contain different yeasts, and contribute different flavours in their own right, both in the ferment and in the final dough. Generally in the ferment, RYE will be more sour, as will flours with a higher mineral content (ash).

4. I usually use 33% (ish) fermented FLOUR in a final mix.. Here comes the essay...

​

BAKER'S HYDRATION​

Get some digital scales, weighing EVERYTHING is heaps easier than measuring volumes.

Ingredients are measured against TOTAL FLOUR WEIGHT not TOTAL RECIPE WEIGHT.

So.....

A 68% mix would be,

1000g flour

680g water

20g salt (2% usually)



I usually use a 100% starter (equal flour and water), cos it's easier to mix..



Let's say i wanted to bake two loaves, I would need at least 1500g of dough.

My draft recipe would be,

1000g flour (100%)

680g water (68%)

20g salt (2%)

10g sugar (1%)



So my SOURDOUGH recipe would be

660g ferment (330g flour and 330g water)

770 flour (1000g less 330g)

350g water (680 less 330g)

20g salt

10g sugar...



5. Nah each week is different. The recipe above is my base, different flours, add fat, use beer, rest it for an hour or twenty four hours... Mood swings...

6. Pretty much the case, remember it's the aeration that counts. Alcohol production is basically an anaerobic exercise for yeast (google The Pasteur Effect) one switched on ****** for a chemist), and lactos are also generally anaerobic. Check out the Solid Beer thread.. As long as it's not badly infected I reckon you could re-activate a starter weeks after your last feed. I just yesterday got round to emptying the bucket that Frank lived in. Frank was our starter from The Bistro (October last year). Smelt like poo and acetone.. Underneath the brown liquid however was pure white dough, that I would bet, would inoculate a new starter safely... Lactic acid and alcohol are PRESERVATIVES..



That would have been exciting at The Turf Club huh??

Cheers for the tour mate, we'll be in touch for our next visit!!



Lloydie







:icon_chickcheers:

 

[LLoyd]

OK. So I tried making a starter and it didn't quite work - never really rose much so after a week I tipped it. I used a mixture of unbleached wholemeal flour and white flour. A question for those that make yeast starters. Is it the yeast that live among the grain within the wholemeal flour that is supposed to be kicking this off or is it the yeast that floats around in the air?

sap.

One thing that might help... There seems to be a critical mass thing with starters... The bigger it is the better your chances..

 

[brettprevans]

shocking behaviour on my behalf wasnt it!

cheers lloyd. heaps of info which was what i was after. i like to be thorough.

so 1/3 of the starter and 2/3 new. lovely. hmmmm Rye sourdough... will be off to the supermarket tomorow to get some flour since the only 'beer' grain ive got left in the house is pils, choc malt, crystal, carapils and black patent. im not sure that would make a great mix for my first batch.

although thinking about it... add a bit of rye, black patent and crystal and youve got a dark rye! splash of stout to finish it off.......

 

[LLoyd]

Blitz a bit of chocolate malt and feed it to your starter a few days before you bake make your final with stout insted of water and you've got a cracker!!

 

[King Brown]

View attachment 26095
and this is our mixer when we do big batches...

Looks Identical to the one at the Brumby's I used to work at...
Has anybody read the book Wild Sourdough by Yoke Mardewi?
Looks really fancy and glossy but wanted to know if anyone had read it and would they reccomend it?

 

[LLoyd]

never did more than six or seven kilos in it. Wouldn't handle more than ten or eleven. Tis only a wee li'l one... Thinks he's gonna be a HOBART when he grows up poor kid..

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Yup.... Get Lloydie talking about bread and you're in for a boring night....

Glad you're still alive after your shocking behaviour last week (SWMBO)...

1. Rather than chucking it out, just add the food and build up towards baking day. Contrary to popular belief (chuck HALF of it away) you only need to refresh about ten percent of your starter. This gives MORE of your flour MORE time to ferment, and saves wastage..

2. Either way is good. I usually leave it out for a bit but that's just me spoiling my yeasties..

3. All of the above mate! Different flours contain different yeasts, and contribute different flavours in their own right, both in the ferment and in the final dough. Generally in the ferment, RYE will be more sour, as will flours with a higher mineral content (ash).

4. I usually use 33% (ish) fermented FLOUR in a final mix.. Here comes the essay...

​

BAKER'S HYDRATION​

Get some digital scales, weighing EVERYTHING is heaps easier than measuring volumes.

Ingredients are measured against TOTAL FLOUR WEIGHT not TOTAL RECIPE WEIGHT.

So.....

A 68% mix would be,

1000g flour

680g water

20g salt (2% usually)



I usually use a 100% starter (equal flour and water), cos it's easier to mix..



Let's say i wanted to bake two loaves, I would need at least 1500g of dough.

My draft recipe would be,

1000g flour (100%)

680g water (68%)

20g salt (2%)

10g sugar (1%)



So my SOURDOUGH recipe would be

660g ferment (330g flour and 330g water)

770 flour (1000g less 330g)

350g water (680 less 330g)

20g salt

10g sugar...



5. Nah each week is different. The recipe above is my base, different flours, add fat, use beer, rest it for an hour or twenty four hours... Mood swings...

6. Pretty much the case, remember it's the aeration that counts. Alcohol production is basically an anaerobic exercise for yeast (google The Pasteur Effect) one switched on ****** for a chemist), and lactos are also generally anaerobic. Check out the Solid Beer thread.. As long as it's not badly infected I reckon you could re-activate a starter weeks after your last feed. I just yesterday got round to emptying the bucket that Frank lived in. Frank was our starter from The Bistro (October last year). Smelt like poo and acetone.. Underneath the brown liquid however was pure white dough, that I would bet, would inoculate a new starter safely... Lactic acid and alcohol are PRESERVATIVES..



That would have been exciting at The Turf Club huh??

Cheers for the tour mate, we'll be in touch for our next visit!!



Lloydie







:icon_chickcheers:

When are you coming over to show me the ropes? Swap beer for knowledge. You know me, I love to make good food to go with the beer.Sour dough sounds right up my ally.I like that it can be used as a pizza base as well.God we have to get together and organise a food and beer dinner party. Bugger it , lets just open a brew pub on my deck.
GB