Looking For Recipe Or Advice..

[dildodicaprio]

Hi there guys,

Just signed up to this forum and hoping to get some help. At the moment myself and a friend are trying to nut out a recipe for the Cairngorn Tradewinds beer, http://www.cairngormbrewery.com/index.php?...show&ref=tw . It is an american style ale and the information describes it as follows;

Light golden in colour with a high proportion of wheat giving the beer a clean fresh taste. The mash blends together with the Perle hops and elderflower, providing a bouquet of fruit and citrus flavours.

Pours as clear as stream water, clear gold. The aroma is of a fresh spring meadow, light grass with a beautifully delicate Elderflower clearly present.
Clean sweet malt wafts over the tongue, on the initial sip, little room for dryness. Some biscuit crunch in the middle, fading towards caramel sweetness. The finish is light grassy citrus bittering, and a final gentle linger of elderflower.

A deliciously fresh golden ale, beautifuly balanced with that elderflower twist.

(Alc 4.3% vol.)

Based on that description we are trying to either find or make a recipe for it. So at this stage we are thinking of using

-Perle Hops (pellets 90gm) http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=587
-Ale - Perle Malt (Bairds) http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=789
-A bit undecided on yeasts thinking one of these;
-------Wyeast 1010 - American Wheat http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=1600
-------Wyeast 1056 - American Ale http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=1602
-------Wyeast 1099 - Whitbread Ale http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=1605

Then probably adding some dried elderflower towards the end of the ferment..

Any ideas guys? All suggestions appreciated!

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Hi there,

Based on the description, they are using Biscuit Malt and a Cara-something, along with Wheat (whether malted or not, I'd say malted though given the description).

Perle hops obviously, but the latter description appears to be describing galaxy as well, and possibly Citra.

As for yeast, I'd be going with good ol' US05. You'd be surprised (as was I) how many micros use dried yeast (it's been the source of many comments on teh forum).

Cheers,

Goomba

 

[bum]

This beer uses actual elderflower. Unless you're able to source some you're not going to nail it. Try some cascade for the citrus, a whack of perle for bittering, a small amount of citra late (or slightly more amarillo instead). Lots of wheat, heavy on the biscuit and crystal (carapils, nothing darker) to keep it chewy and keep the wheat under control. If you're not using the elderflower I'd go wy1272, else wy1056/us-05.

Remember it is a UK interpretation of the American style (as opposed to the dry Australian interpretations most of us are accustomed to).

 

[Blackbeard]

Howdy guys,

I'm the other guy brewing with Dildo.

What would you say to the following recipe:
30g perle 40min
20g cascade 20min
10g citra 10min
20g dried elderflower 5min

1kg golden promise malt
1kg traditional ale malt
250g carapils malt
750g biscuit malt
3kg wheat malt

EDIT: How does the malt collection look now?

US-05 yeast

We haven't tasted it so just guessing by the tasting notes found around the web.

 

[Tim F]

Carapils isn't a base malt, you wouldn't want to use more than 5%ish in any brew! Same with the biscuit malt, 5-10%.

 

[bum]

Carapils isn't a base malt, you wouldn't want to use more than 5%ish in any brew! Same with the biscuit malt, 5-10%.

I disagree completely on the carapils. Even fresh US examples of APAs are usually pretty full-on in crystal character - not sweet necessarily but there's a definite complexity in the malt character that you just do not see in local variants. Not saying to leave it exactly where it is of course, depends on the projected (and desired) IBU - keep it in balance. I just reject the idea that you'd never go over 5% in any beer. However, I would agree that the biscuit is a bit much - say 500g max? Again, depending on IBU - if your IBU are low you may even wanna look at taking to down to the sub-150g region.

I have no idea if adding regular flowers works in the same manner as hop flowers. Have you done any research on whether they utilise in the same manner? I would have thought about using them in secondary, myself. I've never used them though so that's entirely supposition.

 

[bconnery]

I disagree completely on the carapils. Even fresh US examples of APAs are usually pretty full-on in crystal character - not sweet necessarily but there's a definite complexity in the malt character that you just do not see in local variants. Not saying to leave it exactly where it is of course, depends on the projected (and desired) IBU - keep it in balance. I just reject the idea that you'd never go over 5% in any beer. However, I would agree that the biscuit is a bit much - say 500g max? Again, depending on IBU - if your IBU are low you may even wanna look at taking to down to the sub-150g region.

I have no idea if adding regular flowers works in the same manner as hop flowers. Have you done any research on whether they utilise in the same manner? I would have thought about using them in secondary, myself. I've never used them though so that's entirely supposition.

I would agree completely with bum on not having a limit of 5%, but I'd actually suggest dropping it altogether for this beer as I don't think it will contribute much towards the flavour profile outlined by that description.
I'd also drop the biscuit down to 500g max, maybe even a bit less.
That description sounds very much to me like a beer made with wheat malt, ale malt, and a bit of something like biscuit malt.
You want some malt character, but not so much that the elderflower can't come through

I also wouldn't use Cascade or Citra, or at least only one and in a really small addition, just to get a hint. I'd say they have the potential to overpower the elderflower. I'd use Perle all the way, and possibly not much in the way of a flavour addition at all.

Mind you, I haven't tasted the beer so this is all supposition, but it sounds from that description very much like an English Summer/Golden Ale with an elderflower twist, and mostly the crystal character of these is not heavy, they are flavoursome, but light and refreshing.

 

[Pennywise]

Carapils isn't a base malt, you wouldn't want to use more than 5%ish in any brew!

Weyerman reckon it can be used up to 40%, but obviously this wouldn't be the case for this beer

 

[bum]

I'd actually suggest dropping it altogether for this beer as I don't think it will contribute much towards the flavour profile outlined by that description.

The reason I'm leaning towards an addition of some very light crystal is that this beer has a large percentage of wheat but the brewery suggests there isn't a hint of dryness - they seem to stress a certain maltiness. My experience is that you do need to add something to make wheat-heavy beers malty and I think it needs more than the biscuit alone. Obviously, I'm willing to accept that my interpretation of their description could be faulty - like you, I haven't had the beer

I also wouldn't use Cascade or Citra, or at least only one and in a really small addition, just to get a hint. I'd say they have the potential to overpower the elderflower.

They stress a citrus/passionfruit fruitiness that I presume would be hard to get with just the perle and elderflower. Obviously I have no idea how elderflower works in a brew, it may very well produce those flavours but may experience of elderflower cordials is more floral than fruity.

Sounds like an interesting brew, guys. be sure to keep us updated.

 

[bconnery]

The reason I'm leaning towards an addition of some very light crystal is that this beer has a large percentage of wheat but the brewery suggests there isn't a hint of dryness - they seem to stress a certain maltiness. My experience is that you do need to add something to make wheat-heavy beers malty and I think it needs more than the biscuit alone. Obviously, I'm willing to accept that my interpretation of their description could be faulty - like you, I haven't had the beer


They stress a citrus/passionfruit fruitiness that I presume would be hard to get with just the perle and elderflower. Obviously I have no idea how elderflower works in a brew, it may very well produce those flavours but may experience of elderflower cordials is more floral than fruity.

Sounds like an interesting brew, guys. be sure to keep us updated.

Actually, reading that description again I'm wondering whether the wheat malt couldn't be decreased, which might alleviate the need for additional crystel. I know it says a high proportion of wheat malt, but compared to what?
A high proportion for a hefe is one thing, but a high proportion for a summer ale could mean as 'little' as 30%

I think reading that description I'd drop the wheat back to 30%, english base malt, and some biscuit.
I'd still keep the flavour hop addition on the low side.

I couldn't see anything on the Cairngorm site that suggests it is an american style ale, from the description it sounds very much like a golden/summer ale as I said.

 

[bum]

I couldn't see anything on the Cairngorm site that suggests it is an american style ale

Ah-ha! You're right. I missed that. The award it won was in the Best Bitter category too. Yeah, your revised recommendations sound much more like it.

[EDIT: having said that I would certainly drink the beer they're suggesting once the grist was balanced up a bit - I'm sure it'd be a decent beer too]

 

[manticle]

Vienna would give sweet malt and biscuit notes.

 

[Blackbeard]

Hmmm...

Doesn't seem to be much info about elderflower extraction (either as tea or beer) so hopefully this will work out not too overpowering.

On a few sites they class it as an American Wheat Ale, but others put it as a Golden Ale, and this one even a Summer Blonde Ale:
http://www.pissitupthewall.com/2008/11/cai...rade-winds.html
Mentions that it lacks Cascade bite so decided to drop that from the bill.

Re-configured a little again:

US-05 yeast

20g dried elderflower 5min from http://www.herbcottage.com.au/dried-elder-flower.html

30g Perle 30min
10g Citra 10min
10g Perle 10min

2kg (BB) Ale malt
1kg (TF) Maris Otter malt
150g (Wm) Carapils malt
500g (Dm) Biscuit malt
2kg (BB) Wheat malt

Most stuff coming from Craftbrewer.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, IBUs looking at 32-30, with OG looking around 1056 if I did the numbers correctly.
PS: We're not very mash experienced.

 

[Tim F]

I disagree completely on the carapils. Even fresh US examples of APAs are usually pretty full-on in crystal character - not sweet necessarily but there's a definite complexity in the malt character that you just do not see in local variants.

Fair enough, I've never thought of it using it more than I'd use crstal eg 5-10%. I still wouldn't use 3kg of it though - thought it needed to be mashed with normal grain to convert properly.


You may want to use a bit more elderflower than that - bit of googling for elderflower tea recipes and I found one that used 15g of dried flowers per litre. You might not want it like full strength tea flavour in there of course. Another option could be elderflower cordial - I reckon I have seen that at some of the bigger supermarkets or gourmet food kinda stores but couldn't tell ou whether it had preservatives etc.