Leftover lager

[cooltobelou]

Hi everyone, I'm new to brewing, but have done a fair bit of reading on this excellent forum and hopefully picked up a few tips (thanks!).

I bought a bunch of stuff to do the first few kit and extract brews and largely followed existing recipes. I'll be putting the third down this weekend (an IPA) and there are two currently conditioning in bottles - an English Summer Ale and an American Pale Ale (it's almost torture waiting for these!).

Now I'm trying to plan for the fourth. I'm looking at trying a lager with what I already have lying around (other than the lager yeast, which I need to buy) and was wondering if this looks okay? This is my first go at doing a recipe from scratch so I've kept it pretty simple.

Boil:
200gm light crystal malt grains (steeped for 60 mins in 2L water)
3L additional water (5L total)
500gm light DME
25gm Amarillo @ 30 mins
25gm Cascade @ 10 mins

Add to FV with:
1kg light DME
1kg Coopers BE2
Water to 21L
Saflager w34/70

Any thoughts?

 

[manticle]

Hi mate,

Generally looks OK if you are after an American style hoppy lager rather than a Euro type (Hoppy lagers can be delicious).

A few things to note:

1. I'd need to run through a calculator to be sure but off the top of my head, your gravity will be quite low - what abv are you aiming for?
2. Again, I'd need to run through a calculator and know the aa% of the hops but bitterness may also be low. By adding some hops earlier/boiling for longer you will add more bitterness - again it depends on desired level. If boiling the hops longer, you will lose/reduce some of the more aromatic characteristics of the hops. Alternatively, you could buy more hops or reduce the volume (which would also alter abv/gravity as mentioned above).
3. Lagers generally benefit from much cooler fermentation than ales. As a result, they require more yeast (roughly double the equivalent gravity ale) - in the case of a 21 L batch, it's recommended you use at least 2 packs of yeast. Read the recommended temperature range on the yeast pack and try and maintain that for the bulk of the fermentation. Can you keep the brew cool and steady?

 

[Coodgee]

Hi everyone, I'm new to brewing, but have done a fair bit of reading on this excellent forum and hopefully picked up a few tips (thanks!).

I bought a bunch of stuff to do the first few kit and extract brews and largely followed existing recipes. I'll be putting the third down this weekend (an IPA) and there are two currently conditioning in bottles - an English Summer Ale and an American Pale Ale (it's almost torture waiting for these!).

Now I'm trying to plan for the fourth. I'm looking at trying a lager with what I already have lying around (other than the lager yeast, which I need to buy) and was wondering if this looks okay? This is my first go at doing a recipe from scratch so I've kept it pretty simple.

Boil:
200gm light crystal malt grains (steeped for 60 mins in 2L water)
3L additional water (5L total)
500gm light DME
25gm Amarillo @ 30 mins
25gm Cascade @ 10 mins

Add to FV with:
1kg light DME
1kg Coopers BE2
Water to 21L
Saflager w34/70

Any thoughts?

Those hops are really associated with american pale ales. what you'd be brewing there would be an american pale ale with a lager yeast. I would just brew that beer with an ale yeast like US05. will save a lot of fuss and probably get you a better result.

You've got it pretty well in spec for an APA, just needs to be a bit more bitter to strictly fit the style guidelines but 27 IBU will still be nice.

BeerSmith 2 Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: some dude
Style: American Pale Ale


Recipe Specifications
Batch Size (fermenter): 21.00 l   
Bottling Volume: 19.00 l
Estimated OG: 1.045 SG
Estimated Color: 13.5 EBC
Estimated IBU: 27.1 IBUs


Ingredients:
------------
Amt                   Name                                     Type          #        %/IBU         
0.20 kg               Caramel/Crystal Malt - 30L (59.1 EBC)    Grain         1        7.4 %         
2.50 kg               Light Dry Extract (15.8 EBC)             Dry Extract   2        92.6 %        
25.00 g               Amarillo [9.20 %] - Boil 30.0 min        Hop           3        21.2 IBUs     
25.00 g               Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 10.0 min         Hop           4        6.0 IBUs

 

[Matplat]

Agree with the above, I wouldn't bother with doing it as a lager yet, much more stuffing around, and much more waiting too.

Alternatively if you really want to do it as a lager, you could try using Mangrove Jacks M54 California Lager yeast, or Wyeast 2112, which ferments at ale temps, and doesn't need the long cold conditioning that lager yeasts require.

 

[cooltobelou]

Hi mate,

Generally looks OK if you are after an American style hoppy lager rather than a Euro type (Hoppy lagers can be delicious).

A few things to note:

1. I'd need to run through a calculator to be sure but off the top of my head, your gravity will be quite low - what abv are you aiming for?
2. Again, I'd need to run through a calculator and know the aa% of the hops but bitterness may also be low. By adding some hops earlier/boiling for longer you will add more bitterness - again it depends on desired level. If boiling the hops longer, you will lose/reduce some of the more aromatic characteristics of the hops. Alternatively, you could buy more hops or reduce the volume (which would also alter abv/gravity as mentioned above).
3. Lagers generally benefit from much cooler fermentation than ales. As a result, they require more yeast (roughly double the equivalent gravity ale) - in the case of a 21 L batch, it's recommended you use at least 2 packs of yeast. Read the recommended temperature range on the yeast pack and try and maintain that for the bulk of the fermentation. Can you keep the brew cool and steady?

Cheers for that. Looking around 4.5 - 5% abv.

According to Coodgee's calculations (thanks for that!), it will be around 27 IBU. Would this be okay for an American hoppy lager?

I've got an STC-1000 hooked up to a fridge, so low temps won't be a problem. Instead of using two packs of yeast, can I make a starter with one pack? I'm going to look into building a stir plate shortly to help with this.

Those hops are really associated with american pale ales. what you'd be brewing there would be an american pale ale with a lager yeast. I would just brew that beer with an ale yeast like US05. will save a lot of fuss and probably get you a better result.

You've got it pretty well in spec for an APA, just needs to be a bit more bitter to strictly fit the style guidelines but 27 IBU will still be nice.

(recipe removed)

My first three brews are ales, so I was wanting to try a lager, but I also wanted to use up the Amarillo and Cascade that I already have. I could be persuaded to store them a bit longer and buy different hops for this lager... In that case, which hops would you recommend as being more suited to lagers?

 

[Coodgee]

Cheers for that. Looking around 4.5 - 5% abv.

According to Coodgee's calculations (thanks for that!), it will be around 27 IBU. Would this be okay for an American hoppy lager?

I've got an STC-1000 hooked up to a fridge, so low temps won't be a problem. Instead of using two packs of yeast, can I make a starter with one pack? I'm going to look into building a stir plate shortly to help with this.


My first three brews are ales, so I was wanting to try a lager, but I also wanted to use up the Amarillo and Cascade that I already have. I could be persuaded to store them a bit longer and buy different hops for this lager... In that case, which hops would you recommend as being more suited to lagers?

ok if you are keen for a lager and you have temp control then go for it! use 2 packets of a dry lager yeast like saflager W-34/70. I would use a European hop for a more common lager flavour. I am putting down a german pils tomorrow that uses magnum as the bittering hop and hallertauer Mittlefrueh for the aroma hops. But for your first lager you can't go wrong with saaz. here are a couple of my recipes for lagers that you could copy the hop schedule for:

German Pils
Amt Name Type # %/IBU

17.00 g Hallertau Magnum [13.80 %] - Boil 60.0 m Hop 6 24.0 IBUs

35.00 g Hallertauer Mittelfrueh 3.00 % Boil 15 m Hop 8 5.3 IBUs
35.00 g Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [3.00 %] - Steep Hop 9 0.5 IBUs


Bo pils:

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU

40.00 g Saaz [3.40 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 13.5 IBUs
25.00 g Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.00 %] - Boil 60 Hop 5 9.9 IBUs
50.00 g Saaz [3.40 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 6 8.4 IBUs
40.00 g Saaz [3.40 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 7 2.7 IBUs
50.00 g Saaz [3.40 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 5.0 min Hop 8 1.7 IBUs


Munich Helles:

41.00 g               Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.00 %] - 60 mins            5        19.7 IBUs

 

[pablo_h]

So you want to make a beer with only 1.75kg DME but 21L? That's not going to work, buy a kit as well IMO.
I think also you're using way to much crystal for a lager, and of course the wrong hops.
You can make a beer with what you have, but it's so far off a lager you may as well use an ale yeast just to make a beer with left overs.

I'd go to woolworths and buy a lager or draught kit, add the 500g dme, be2, pick 20g of whatever hops you like, and use MJ54 yeast and just make an US hopped but aussie style bitter/lager at 18C.
Save the kg of dme for another pale ale, get pilsner malt for a lager and the right hops (hallertauer or saaz) and lager yeast for for your 5-6th brew.

E: put any unused hops in a freezer bag inside of a ziplock bag and store in the freezer for up to a year or two (my record is 6 years for some old willimette).

 

[Vini2ton]

Go ahead and do what you wanted to do. Just make it a 15lt brew or bang in some white sugar to up the fermentables if you have to make it over 20lt. You have the temperature control so go for it. Style guidelines suck. Dry-hop, steep speciality grains, experiment just for sake of it and brew on brother.

 

[pablo_h]

I agree you don't have to follow style guidelines.
Experiment, make a beer with whatever. But it's more like I was saying this isn't going to turn out like they think it is and they're running an extra fridge for nothing/just because they can rather than they need or should be.
Better use of that fridge would be storing the already bottled beers

 

[cooltobelou]

Cheers for the feedback guys. I guess experimentation is the best way to learn how different hops and yeasts impact on flavour, so I'll probably stick with the original plan, primarily to see what an American hoppy lager might taste like.

Consensus seems to be for more fermentables, so I'll add another 500gm dextrose to the original 500gm (in the BE2). That will be 1.75kg DME and 1kg dextrose in total, which is hopefully okay. I've just discovered ianh's spreadsheet, so I'll plug everything in there and figure it out.

It probably makes sense to brew a more traditional lager to compare, so I'll definitely explore the Euro hops and pilsner malt for the following brew. That way I'll be able to do a side by side comparison when they're both ready.

 

[manticle]

Try commercial examples of everything too to see where your palate and preferences lie.

 

[Blind Dog]

Reckon it's a good recipe. If you've got temp control and can ferment at lager temps, it's worth using a lager yeast to get that clean lager finish. US citrus hops work brilliantly in a lager; really crisp and bitter and bright. Citra is a favourite, but Amarillo and cascade is an excellent combo. Don't forget the diacetyl rest (if it needs one), and it really is worth the time to lager it properly.

I'd recommend getting at least one Homebrew reference book to help on your journey. Randy Mosher's 'Mastering Homebrew' is (IMO) the best of the lot, particularly if you're drawn to experimenting. It's really useful to have something that'll answer most of your questions; I still refer to my copy of his book all the time.

 

[Danscraftbeer]

Then your home brew versions always taste so much better than those expensive rare shelf versions.
Just saying, being a judge of both in personal interest.