Kegging hoppy beers - driving me insane

[slash22000]

Seriously, feel like tearing my hair out, and judging by Google I'm not the only one.

I know for a fact it's possible to properly keg hoppy beers - professional breweries can do it, and pubs can serve it, so what is the missing link? I can go to a pub and get a hoppy IPA poured for me, so why do my IPA's taste like shit in less than a week?

My latest IPA had 46g of hops at flameout, and 68g of dry hops. Not a ridiculous amount, but a pretty good aroma plug right? Big hops too, Centennial, Amarillo, Simcoe and Chinook, big hitters.

• Fermented for ~4 weeks, no sign of infections
• Cold crashed / finings before dry hopping
• Dry hopped at 20ºC for 5 days
• Keg completely purged with CO2 (filled with Starsan, pushed the entire lot out through the taps)
• Siphoned into the CO2 filled keg, purged headspace a few times
• Force carbonated "set and forget" at 12 PSI to avoid venting any aroma

Basically every hint/tip I've ever read about kegging hoppy beers is used in that procedure. The beer has virtually zero exposure to oxygen, I'm not venting any aroma from the keg, people have used the same recipe and had great results so I don't think it's the hopping amount.

First day of drinking it was ******* amazing. Mind blowing. Just about wept into my beer. Second day, third day, all great. I thought I finally had a method that actually worked, I could smell the hops before I even raised the glass to my mouth.

... Then 4 days after the first glass, the beer has gone to shit. Hop flavour is still strong-ish, but the aroma is kaput. I can hardly detect it even with my nose in the glass. :angry: I mean it's still a nice beer, as far as beers go, but you couldn't even tell it was the same beer as I was drinking on the first day.

It's like the hop aroma/flavour somehow sunk to the bottom of the keg and I was drinking the concentrated awesomeness at first, but now I'm left with this bland muddled beer, like sucking the flavour from an ice block and being left with colourful frozen water. I cannot for the life of me figure out what has happened. I haven't opened the keg or anything like that.

I've seen Google recommendations for things like keg hopping, Randalls, etc to maintain aroma but I shouldn't have to do that. If big breweries can ship hoppy kegs without all that jazz, there MUST be a way to do it. :wacko:

TL;DR Kegged IPA was amazing for 3 days, now it tastes like a bland watered down version of its former glorious self and smells like nothing! Why!?

 

[mxd]

you can try and finish the keg in 3 days, that'll fix it

 

[Yob]

Not that it helps you in your instance above, but Ive taken to smaller fv dry hopping in favour of keg hopping... huge fan, dont know how I did without it :unsure:

 

[Parks]

I didn't realise how much of a problem it was until I opened a few APAs I had bottled of a batch that I had a keg of - the bottles had amazing hop aroma and flavour compared to the keg (this was after about a month).

I also found with a keg I took to a friend's place that the hop flavour came back with the shaken keg (along with some cloudiness) so in at least one instance I was losing hops to floculation.

 

[Logman]

I didn't realise how much of a problem it was until I opened a few APAs I had bottled of a batch that I had a keg of - the bottles had amazing hop aroma and flavour compared to the keg (this was after about a month).

Same here. You can have a bottled APA 6 months later and it's awesome.

What about the fact that a Corny has a small footprint compared to a pub keg? Anyone got a 50 litre keg can comment?

 

[DarkFaerytale]

When those kegs from the big brewerys are tapped at a bar, they would probably be gone within 3 days, perhaps they suffer the same fate if left for a week?

 

[stakka82]

I didn't realise how much of a problem it was until I opened a few APAs I had bottled of a batch that I had a keg of - the bottles had amazing hop aroma and flavour compared to the keg (this was after about a month).

I also found with a keg I took to a friend's place that the hop flavour came back with the shaken keg (along with some cloudiness) so in at least one instance I was losing hops to floculation.

I find when the keg is cloudy i get more bitterness and hop flavour/aroma. When it clears I get much less.

I remember reading somewhere about the hop oils/alpha acids etc getting 'stuck' to yeast, no reference, sorry.

Yes, it's a frustrating phenomenon, I would like to hear from someone who has mastered it!

 

[slash22000]

I wonder if there is a way to "circulate" the beer in the keg ...

 

[lukiferj]

Not that it helps you in your instance above, but Ive taken to smaller fv dry hopping in favour of keg hopping... huge fan, dont know how I did without it :unsure:

I also keg hop over hopping in the fv. Much more flavour/aroma and doesn't seem to dissipate too much over a few weeks. I chuck my hops in a hop sock and use dental floss to tie to the top of the keg. After around 5 pints the sock is out of the beer which means that it doesn't get any grassiness. Leaves the yeast cleaner in the fv if you want to reuse the trub too.

 

[manticle]

You should be making beer that's good enough so that there is a backbone beneath when the hops fade.

Main question for me though is are you leaving the dry hops in the keg too long and getting the less pleasant aspects of dry hopping overshadowing the beer rather than just fading hops?

 

[bum]

Lots of potential places to oxidise the brew before kegging stage.

Also, do you no-chill? Can't back it up with science (but I recall bizier (possibly) having done so in the not too distant past) but my experience is that way hoppy beers fade really fast with this method.

Include lots of hot-breakin your primary like seems to be so popular lately? Transfer from kettle without caring how much you splash (again, by popular decree)? These both affect flavour stabilty no matter how much this board wants to deny it.

Good luck with it.

 

[Nick JD]

Ever been to Rotorua in unZed? As you drive in the morning you get this insane hit of farts - almost overwhelming sulphur - for the first few hours.

By the afternoon it seems like the wind changed. By the evening you can hardly even smell it anymore.

The next day it's gone. Suddenly you realise how the locals there can deal with it.

What might be contributing to this is Olfactory Fatigue and what others are noticing when they pull out a bottle of a beer (that they haven't sampled for ages) and it's really aromatic is the same thing.

When I used to smoke, I'd buy a particular brand, and smoking someone else's brand would be disgusting (marlboro especially). Then I went overseas and started smoking marlboro and they ended up tasting normal. Until I changed again.

It's quite possible to make anything taste bland once your brain starts shutting a regular thing off. It's the reason the unwashed masses can stomach VB. And the same reason homebrewers can happily drink 80 IBU ales that would make others gag and choke.

Why not bottle some - from the keg - at the start (when it's good), and at the end (when it's bad), put them both away for a week or two and then taste them with some mates back to back and see if the difference is as marked.

 

[Robbo2234]

Are you filling your kegs from the fermenter tap?

When I did this there was always a air bubble near the tap I couldn't get rid of, now I Syphon over the top and the beer dosent change flavours as quickly, but still fades

 

[DarkFaerytale]

lifting the transfer hose higher than the tap *should* get rid of the bubble

 

[Nick JD]

If using a hose from the tap, simply crimp the hose, open the tap till it fills up to the crimp and then let it go.

 

[stakka82]

Are you filling your kegs from the fermenter tap?

When I did this there was always a air bubble near the tap I couldn't get rid of, now I Syphon over the top and the beer dosent change flavours as quickly, but still fades

I pinch the hose over the bubble and it almost always goes.

ed: beaten by nickjd

 

[brad81]

I wonder if there is a way to "circulate" the beer in the keg ...

Give the keg a "swirl" (eg gently rock the beer up the sides) before your next pour? Could the oil adhere to the sides at a low temp?

 

[Robbo2234]

If using a hose from the tap, simply crimp the hose, open the tap till it fills up to the crimp and then let it go.

I pinch the hose over the bubble and it almost always goes.

ed: beaten by nickjd

Really, **** me that easy! I am going to have to try that next time..

 

[slash22000]

Also, do you no-chill? Can't back it up with science (but I recall bizier (possibly) having done so in the not too distant past) but my experience is that way hoppy beers fade really fast with this method.

I have a wort chiller, but being Darwin, the coolest I can get the wort is about 30ºC so I let it cool in my freezer overnight before I pitch yeast. I'm actually looking in to some sort of ice-water pump situation for the future (because obviously I don't have enough expensive brewing equipment).

Before anybody freaks out about leaving cool wort into a container overnight, I nuke the whole container with Starsan for hours before I put any wort into it, and there is a huge amount of foam that fills all the empty space. Never had an infection doing this, but I know it's a risk.

Include lots of hot-breakin your primary like seems to be so popular lately? Transfer from kettle without caring how much you splash (again, by popular decree)? These both affect flavour stabilty no matter how much this board wants to deny it.

Now you mention it, yes, I do. I basically pour the entire contents of the urn into the fermentor. I've never been able to get a proper "whirlpool" etc going, I'd lose about 5 litres of wort if I left all the break in the urn.

I don't really worry about splashing too much, but the wort is 30-ish degrees when I'm transferring, still hot enough to have an effect?

Why not bottle some - from the keg - at the start (when it's good), and at the end (when it's bad), put them both away for a week or two and then taste them with some mates back to back and see if the difference is as marked.

I might do this with my next batch, I was really hoping with this batch I had solved the problem. Which I did .. for a few days ..

Are you filling your kegs from the fermenter tap?

When I did this there was always a air bubble near the tap I couldn't get rid of, now I Syphon over the top and the beer dosent change flavours as quickly, but still fades

No, I use an autosiphon.

Give the keg a "swirl" (eg gently rock the beer up the sides) before your next pour? Could the oil adhere to the sides at a low temp?

I will give this a go next drink, hoping it's not necessary forever!

 

[Florian]

I nuke the whole container with Starsan for hours before I put any wort into it, and there is a huge amount of foam that fills all the empty space.

You mean there is a huge amount of foam sitting above your wort before you pitch?

This foam will eventually drop down into your wort and might be part of your problem. At least something I'd look at changing and see if it makes a difference.

I know I'm not comfortable with any unnecessary amount of star san entering my wort or beer.