It's Nice When It All Works

[browndog]

So lately I've been getting the ***** cos my efficiency has been up sh*t creek (60-65%), anyway after alot of reading, scouring the interweb and chewing the ear of my LHBS, i approached last nights brew with a new plan. Modification for this brew was:

1. 90min mash (was mashing at 65 deg and haven't done long mash before)
2. Mash out to 78deg (I have done mash outs before, but missed reaching 78 a few times)
3. Uber Slow lautering

The recipe was a double batch of Tony's LCBA clone, and half of it is for a mates 30th (hence the additional concern for making sure everything AOK!). Batch sparge a 42 ltr brew in a 38ltr gatorade mash tun??? Yeah i think we can do that. Well I did, mash out and the additional sparges took the liquid level in the tun right to the lip, but hey anything below the lip is wasted space right???

So cutting a long story short (and thanks to the very slow lautering, a long brew session) the target efficiency was 75% with a starting gravity in the fermenter of 1045, and I managed to get a gravity of 1050!!! Very happy!

At 1.30am this morning i went to bed a very happy man.

Cheers SJ

Are you giving the mash a good stir when you add your sparge water? It should not matter how fast you lauter, the sugars get dissolved in the wort more by stirring the mash, as for mashout, it's a bit of a **** in regards to homebrewing, sparge with water at 90C and you will find your efficiency will go up, even more so if you do a double sparge.

cheers

Browndog

 

[Fourstar]

errrr whoops, i mean tannin extration . But we all know what im talking about... right :unsure:

:lol:

 

[AndrewQLD]

Hey Ross,

The higher you extract the higher the pH rises, if the pH rises well above 6, your chances of pH extraction increases. Im not saying you WILL extract tannins, it just increases your chances. I'd prefer to be slightly under utilising (70-80%) my malt anway as its believed that lower efficiency worts are of a higher quality than 'oversparged' ones.

To counteract the pH issue you would probabaly want to acidify your sparge water. I know its less lilkly for us on the east coast with low carbonate water, but its still possible as our base water in melbourne with a 100% pils grist will get you a mash pH of around 5.6~ (according to the nomograph). I know its 'armwaving' and not 100% accurate, but its beter than nothing.

See this link for your reading Ross, 4th paragraph onwards, (the whole page is quite interesting actually): http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?t...tion_of_Tannins

Cheers!

I think you will find the link you referred to is more applicable to fly sparging, as Ross pointed out there is much less chance of tannin extraction in batch sparging, the main reason for this is that in fly sparging you have a continuous dilution of wort in the grain bed that over time courses the ph to rise over acceptable levels.
In batch sparging there is no continuous dilution of the wort as the wort is only diluted to a uniform level and that is usually only once, sometimes 2 additions are used for bigger beers or if you have a small mash tun but the results are similar.

The typical gravity of a batch sparge beer during it's second and final drain is usually well above 1.010 and mine are usually 1.018-20, with 83-85% eff. Nowhere near raising the PH enough to worry about.


Andrew

 

[Fourstar]

I think you will find the link you referred to is more applicable to fly sparging, as Ross pointed out there is much less chance of tannin extraction in batch sparging, the main reason for this is that in fly sparging you have a continuous dilution of wort in the grain bed that over time courses the ph to rise over acceptable levels.

The typical gravity of a batch sparge beer during it's second and final drain is usually well above 1.010 and mine are usually 1.018-20, with 83-85% eff. Nowhere near raising the PH enough to worry about.

Andrew

Thanks Andrew, makes sense actually. Im assuming the only time this would come into play for batch sparging is say a parti-gyle?

Cheers!

 

[AndrewQLD]

Thanks Andrew, makes sense actually. Im assuming the only time this would come into play for batch sparging is say a parti-gyle?

Cheers!

Spot on!!

 

[Tony]

The typical gravity of a batch sparge beer during it's second and final drain is usually well above 1.010 and mine are usually 1.018-20, with 83-85% eff. Nowhere near raising the PH enough to worry about.

I get exactl the same woth 80 to 90% efficiency consistantly

No tannins here

I do add calcium salts to the sparge water on plae beers and add a touch of acid malt to the mash. Works well.

cheers

 

[Supra-Jim]

Hi Browndog,

Yes, Giving the mash a real good stir for a few minutes after adding the sparge water.

Cheers SJ

 

[browndog]

Hi Browndog,

Yes, Giving the mash a real good stir for a few minutes after adding the sparge water.

Cheers SJ

Excellent, if you don't get good efficiency now then either;

Your crush is too coarse.
Your grain is too old.
Your thermometer is reading the mash way too high.
You have more wort in your kettle than you think you do.

Simple hey! I reckon all the scientific theory crap should be left to scientists.

cheers

Browndog

 

[Fourstar]

Your thermometer is reading the mash way too high.

Good point as if its too cold you wont get conversion. Conversly if its above 75, you wont get any either. My 1st few Ag batches i was wondering why my beers didnt attenuate past 1.020-1.025. Turns out my sight thermo was getting confused by the steam and the mash was 5-7deg too high! 72 deg mashes anyone?!?! :lol:

 

[Supra-Jim]

Temp Gauge is spot on (i think!). I've double checked it against another two gauges (one probe and one dial gauge) and get consistant/matching readings (or maybe they're all wrong ). Also my HLT is temp controlled (external controller not the adhoc dial on the bottom of the urn!). When mashing in, i usually get my target temps within 1-2 degs (strike temps etc calculated by beersmith).

I did recently notice i needed to check the 'temp adjustment for equipment' box and that has improved my accuracy in hitting mash temps.

Cheers SJ

 

[Supra-Jim]

Just on that train of thought, what is the lower temp limit for conversion?

I as understand, lower temp mashes benefit from a longer mash (rule of thumb: below 65 = 90min mash ??? or so the one known as Jamil preaches).

Cheers SJ

 

[browndog]

I've mashed as low as 60C

 

[Screwtop]

Are you giving the mash a good stir when you add your sparge water? It should not matter how fast you lauter, the sugars get dissolved in the wort more by stirring the mash, as for mashout, it's a bit of a **** in regards to homebrewing, sparge with water at 90C and you will find your efficiency will go up, even more so if you do a double sparge.

cheers

Browndog

as for mashout, it's a bit of a **** in regards to homebrewing

Here's some REAL good advice . If batch sparging, get your first runnings into the kettle and start the burner. While sparging your first runnings in the kettle will increase in temp to above that required for mash-out and cease enzyme activity, so no need for a mash out.

sparge with water at 90C and you will find your efficiency will go up, even more so if you do a double sparge

Again REAL good advice from an experienced brewer.

Good on you BD

As for stirring, I have found that using a HERMS, continuous recirculation and fly sparging, that stirring is best kept to an absolute minimum. Newbs, should try to remember that a lot of advice offered depends upon the brewing method being used.

Screwy

 

[Supra-Jim]

Hi Screwy,

I understand the one of the purposes of the mash out being to raise the mash to 78degC and hence stop enzyme activity. Benefit of this being that the fermentation (?) profile of the wort/mash liquor is locked in/won't change. I understand that this is also acheived by your suggestion of getting the kettle up and running.

However, I thought the other benefit spouted about the mash out being that the higher temp lowers the viscosity of the mash/helps dissolve more sugars and hence here lies the basis for the claim in increased efficiency?

Is sparging at 90degC not similar to a mash out (esp for a batch sparger) as it will raise the mash to approx 78 (depending on variables not being discussed).

Cheers SJ

 

[AndrewQLD]

SJ, Screwy is still performing a mash out of sorts, just not on his first runnings/batch that is drained into the kettle, he's letting the kettle raise that to above mash out temps.
He is performing a mash out of the grain bed by dumping 90+ water onto the mash for his batch sparge raising the grain bed temp to 78+

Andrew

 

[Fourstar]

SJ, Screwy is still performing a mash out of sorts, just not on his first runnings/batch that is drained into the kettle, he's letting the kettle raise that to above mash out temps.
He is performing a mash out of the grain bed by dumping 90+ water onto the mash for his batch sparge raising the grain bed temp to 78+
Andrew

Good clarification Andrew, You are not trying to get the mash up to 90 deg but to raise the mash temp to high 70's to ensure the viscosity of the wort is reduced to allow easier sparging. The short contact time you have @ such high temperatures limits the chances of tannins as well.

 

[Supra-Jim]

Cool, thanks guys, that's what i was thinking.

Cheers SJ

 

[ramu_gupta]

Simple hey! I reckon all the scientific theory crap should be left to scientists.

cheers

Browndog

+1 Too much thinking hurts when I try to brew.