Is It Hard To Brew An Ag Lager

[deevee]

Another vote here for liquid lager yeast. Sure, you can make a great lagers with S-189 or W34/70 etc, but if you want to get closer to the real thing, a starter made from healthy, viable Budvar yeast (Wyeast 2000), Urquell (Wyeast 2001) or California Common (Wyeast2112) and their white labs cousins etc is the way to go - you can't make a great lager if you're in a rush...

Trough Lolly, what do you mean by getting close to the real thing? There are heaps of breweries who use 34/70 yeast for their commercial lagers. What makes the Liquid yeasts more "Real"?

 

[Trough Lolly]

Trough Lolly, what do you mean by getting close to the real thing? There are heaps of breweries who use 34/70 yeast for their commercial lagers. What makes the Liquid yeasts more "Real"?

Point taken deevee, but IMHO, the decision to use W34/70 or S-04 in blocks is in many cases, a commercially driven decision. The margins that some breweries are at procludes many from using a specialty strain. My thoughts were more related to the well known breweries that have a world wide reputation at fermenting and harvesting a strain that's unique to their beer - eg Pilsner Urquell, Timothy Taylor Landlord, Sierra Nevada, Anchor Steam, Belgians, Trappists, etc etc...I'm certainly not saying that you can't make a great pilsner without that particular strain, but for those brewers who are striving to make that closest possible replica, you need to factor in choice of yeast strain in that equation.

Cheers,
TL

 

[oldbugman]

Trough Lolly, what do you mean by getting close to the real thing? There are heaps of breweries who use 34/70 yeast for their commercial lagers. What makes the Liquid yeasts more "Real"?

And I bet none of them are 'sprinkling' in any or all batches. either starters or reusing.

 

[deevee]

Point taken deevee, but IMHO, the decision to use W34/70 or S-04 in blocks is in many cases, a commercially driven decision. The margins that some breweries are at procludes many from using a specialty strain. My thoughts were more related to the well known breweries that have a world wide reputation at fermenting and harvesting a strain that's unique to their beer - eg Pilsner Urquell, Timothy Taylor Landlord, Sierra Nevada, Anchor Steam, Belgians, Trappists, etc etc...I'm certainly not saying that you can't make a great pilsner without that particular strain, but for those brewers who are striving to make that closest possible replica, you need to factor in choice of yeast strain in that equation.

Cheers,
TL

TL, when you said the "Real Thing", I thought you meant "Real Lager". I totally understand, yes to make an Urquell or a Budvar, you would best use the Urquell and Budvar yeasts respectively.

However yeast is one thing, malt and hops are the big beasts. There is no way through my experience that I can get the maltiness of an Budvar / Staro / Krusovice / Urqell using just Weyerman Boh Pils malt alone. To make the Real thing here, you will need their undermodified malts and use their mashing regimes. Also I take a quote from Urquells Brewmaster that they use direct fire to either boil or heat their mashes (Not sure which one). And he says "A beer tastes better from fire than from steam".

So alot of factors in making the real thing. My suggestion in making great lagers is to experiment with different specialty malts and hop schedules and make it which will suit your brewing system. A recipe on the net may be good for one person but maynot work for someone else. And also "Think outside the square".

 

[crozdog]

TL, when you said the "Real Thing", I thought you meant "Real Lager". I totally understand, yes to make an Urquell or a Budvar, you would best use the Urquell and Budvar yeasts respectively.

However yeast is one thing, malt and hops are the big beasts. There is no way through my experience that I can get the maltiness of an Budvar / Staro / Krusovice / Urqell using just Weyerman Boh Pils malt alone. To make the Real thing here, you will need their undermodified malts and use their mashing regimes. Also I take a quote from Urquells Brewmaster that they use direct fire to either boil or heat their mashes (Not sure which one). And he says "A beer tastes better from fire than from steam".

So alot of factors in making the real thing. My suggestion in making great lagers is to experiment with different specialty malts and hop schedules and make it which will suit your brewing system. A recipe on the net may be good for one person but maynot work for someone else. And also "Think outside the square".

Deevee,
IMHO, the "hot side" of the brewhouse (including the malt and hop "big beasts") is only 50% of the equation. The other 50% of making a great beer - be that ale or lager, is the "cold side" ie the fermentation process. In the cold side your sanitation, process, yeast selection, yeast health, pitching rate and temperature are all critical. Note that half the points I raise here relate to yeast!

Personally I don't try to make copies, I like to brew to (or something like) a particular style. Yeah sure malt & hop bills do impact as does water treatment, but for my way of thinking, the cold side and in particular yeast plays an often overlooked role.

 

[Lindsay Dive]

Like they all said.
Lagers are a lot less scarey than all the technical info out there would have you believe.
Temperature during fermentation is the key.
I don't even properly lager mine any more.

Grain bill as per the style of lager you are after. My current favourite is a 95% pils, 5% Munich grain bill (I have been using carapils, but just to use it up, honest )
Hops, again for style or preference. I've been going a 60 minute and flavour addition @15/20, but no later than 15.
Yeast, again for preference.
I know excellent lager brewers who swear by liquid.
I know excellent lager brewers who sweat by dry.
I like s189 myself, but as a relative newcomer to successful lagers I don't have a wide sample set...

Pitch higher, 17C and drop, or else pitch at your temp. This is what has worked for me but I don't claim it is the best or only way...
Pitch enough yeast.
Keep the temperature down in the best range for your yeast.
Do a diacetyl rest if you prefer or feel the need.

So mine are now simple.
Pitch at around 12C. Ferment for just under 2 weeks, checking gravity.
Drop down a little colder for a day or two.
Rack to keg.
Carbonate and leave for a week.
They generally need another week, but not always.
This will also vary on style, gravity etc. but for my current german pilsner / munich helles variants it is working just fine...

My german pilsner at christmas was totally gone in a shade under 5 weeks from brewday.

bconnery,

I reckon you're the first to point this out. And one facet of brewing fine lager that I feel is important.
If you don't give your lager that diacetyl rest, you'll notice the difference, won't you Pete?

Regards,
Lindsay.

 

[geoffi]

I've done about 10 lagers and Pilseners I'd say. I've normally done two weeks primary, racked to a cube and lagered for four weeks, then bottled. This has worked very well.

The last couple I've racked into party kegs to naturally carbonate for a couple of weeks, then into the fridge for serving.

I've noticed that the time the beer spends in the fridge after carbonation really transforms it. A Helles I have on at the moment has been sitting in there for about a week, and in that time it's gone from OK to bloody brilliant. It's smoothed out, a few slightly off flavours have disappeared, the maltiness is shining through.

The lesson for me is that patience pays big time with these beers. Malt, hops, yeast and time. It's a PITA to have to wait so long for the finished beer, but if you're prepared to wait you will be rewarded.

 

[Peter Wadey]

bconnery,

I reckon you're the first to point this out. And one facet of brewing fine lager that I feel is important.
If you don't give your lager that diacetyl rest, you'll notice the difference, won't you Pete?

Regards,
Lindsay.

My friend makes a lot of lager, and juggling fermenters, managed to
keg 2 fermenters worth of Pils without giving them a diacetyl rest
1st. The result? Not happy Jan!

Who wants to go to the trouble of krausening their
kegged beer to get rid of it?

Yep, skip the diacetyl rest at your peril (IMHO).

Pete

 

[geoffi]

I've always done DR for these. Two days at about 20c. I don't know if it really has done anything, but considering the time a lager takes, two days in not long.

 

[deevee]

I don't do diacetyl rests at all. And all I brew is Lagers using either 34/70 or 189 yeasts. I leave my beers conditioning (Naturally primed kegs) for at least 6 weeks and the beers are fantastic.

 

[geoffi]

I don't do diacetyl rests at all. And all I brew is Lagers using either 34/70 or 189 yeasts. I leave my beers conditioning (Naturally primed kegs) for at least 6 weeks and the beers are fantastic.

If you're priming kegs I agree there wouldn't be any point to it. Forced carbonating could be a different story.

 

[deevee]

Priming does help clean the beer out but honestly I cannot detect any diacetyl after primary fermentation.

I usually pitch 2 sachets of dry yeast in 20 litres of wort (usually pitch 34/70 in one and 189 in another as I do double batches), ferment between 9 - 11c for up to 3 weeks and then leave it on the yeast cake for a furher week in the primary. If anything, there is acetaldehyde which slowly goes away in time.

 

[goatherder]

No diacetyl rests necessary here either.

Pitch big, pitch cold, ferment cold. Diacetyl isn't a problem with the yeasts I use.

 

[Gulf Brewery]

Hi

Some general rules with lagers. Pitch 2x what you do for an ale and either
1) Pitch warm and bring down the wort to the ferment temperature before anaerobic fermentation starts (usually after 12 to 14 hours) OR
2) Pitch cold and bring up to ferment temperature.

Whichever way you do it, ferment around the mid temperature range for the yeast and you won't have any hassles.

Now you may need a diacetyle rest depending on whether or not you are sensitive to it. If you can't smell or taste it, then it isn't going to make a lot of difference. If you can smell or taste it AND it is present, then a few days diacetyl rest will remove it.

Cheers
Pedro

 

[NeilArge]

Great set of photos, Trough Lolly. What would us newbies do without such dedicated and assiduous help?
I have recently done my first AG and being an Armidalian with winter fast approaching (well, it always comes at the same speed but you get my point) I'm keen to try a lager of some sort. Conditions here a pretty ideal for conditioning lager this time of year. My question is: for a Munich Helles that I am going to attempt would you or anyone else here recommend a step-mash, or is it just not worth the hassle? I'm using a 50l 'stock pot' plus separate mash tun and lauter tun (all a bit improvised but what isn't?). Also, does anyone have a helles recipe that they have tried and found a success? I did see the one on the recipe DB.

Cheers all

Neil

G'day Bridgee - there are three keys to making a good lager...Fresh Ingredients, Patience and Temperature Control.

For more info and pics on making a lager with batch sparge: Click on this link...

Cheers,
TL

 

[Gerard_M]

Is It Hard To Brew An Ag Lager?

No

Cheers
Gerard

 

[bindi]

Is It Hard To Brew An Ag Lager?

No

Cheers
Gerard

+1 Just takes longer, easy as. :icon_cheers:

 

[NeilArge]

Great set of photos, Trough Lolly. What would us newbies do without such dedicated and assiduous help?
I have recently done my first AG and being an Armidalian with winter fast approaching (well, it always comes at the same speed but you get my point) I'm keen to try a lager of some sort. Conditions here a pretty ideal for conditioning lager this time of year. My question is: for a Munich Helles that I am going to attempt would you or anyone else here recommend a step-mash, or is it just not worth the hassle? I'm using a 50l 'stock pot' plus separate mash tun and lauter tun (all a bit improvised but what isn't?). Also, does anyone have a helles recipe that they have tried and found a success? I did see the one on the recipe DB.

Cheers all

Neil

Still banging on about Munich helles, I came across a reasonable sounding recipe, but was a little puzzled by one of the hop additions: 'EKG hop pellets'. This is no doubt an idiotic question, but does this mean East Kent Golding pellets? If so, isn't this a bit strange to use as a basic bittering hop for this style of beer?

Cheers

Neil

 

[bconnery]

Still banging on about Munich helles, I came across a reasonable sounding recipe, but was a little puzzled by one of the hop additions: 'EKG hop pellets'. This is no doubt an idiotic question, but does this mean East Kent Golding pellets? If so, isn't this a bit strange to use as a basic bittering hop for this style of beer?

Cheers

Neil

Yes and yes.
I've no doubt it would be alright but you'd be far better of going with a classic german noble hop, or one of the new varieties of german hop.
I've got the following recipe, it isn't 100% Helles, not strict to style I don't believe but it is close, and very nice. Take out the Vienna to be more true for a start...
There's a picture of it recently in the what's in the glass thread...

Batch Size: 21.00 L
Boil Size: 32.00 L
Estimated OG: 1.047 SG
Estimated Color: 11.8 EBC
Estimated IBU: 34.1 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Boil Time: 70 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
1800.00 gm Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) Grain 40.00 %
1800.00 gm Pale Malt (Barrett Burston) (3.9 EBC) Grain 40.00 %
900.00 gm Vienna Malt (Weyermann) (5.9 EBC) Grain 20.00 %
25.00 gm Smaragd [8.00 %] (40 min) Hops 22.8 IBU
30.00 gm Smaragd [8.00 %] (10 min) Hops 11.3 IBU
1 Pkgs SafLager West European Lager (DCL Yeast #SYeast-Lager 34/70)

 

[THE DRUNK ARAB]

Still banging on about Munich helles, I came across a reasonable sounding recipe, but was a little puzzled by one of the hop additions: 'EKG hop pellets'. This is no doubt an idiotic question, but does this mean East Kent Golding pellets? If so, isn't this a bit strange to use as a basic bittering hop for this style of beer?

Cheers

Neil

I was happy with this one:
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...&recipe=286

Alternatively a grain bill of 95% Pils and 5% Melanoiden with a single infusion mash at 64-65C comes out pretty good.

Definately use a liquid yeast as well, WL 833 is to die for in this style. :icon_drunk:

C&B
TDA