Ipa Recipe.

[mje1980]

I tried flameout and cube hops, but for my preference, i prefer dry hopping, especially kegged beers. Everyone does it different, butall the different ways get results, which is the main thing!.

 

[Muscovy_333]

lol.. The only thing i change is the 0, min additions, they go in with 5 mins before whirlpool. (15 min rest @ flame out)

My 20, 10, and 5 min additions are what they say they are, i seem to be.getting plenty of flavour. I must say though that ive moved.my 60 min to 40 min amd quite like it there.

Yob

I no-chill 23litre batches and have recently moved my 60 minute addition to a 45 minute addition.
My flame out addition is treated as a 20 min and i either cube hop or dry hop a 3 min steep when pitching for aroma.

Makes you wonder about the real ibu's of some of the no-chill DB recipes??

Depending on the volume of wort that has been brewed i imagine the true figures would be all over the shop.

Anybody aware if their are any assays to confirm ibu's?

 

[Parks]

I no-chill 23litre batches and have recently moved my 60 minute addition to a 45 minute addition.

As far as I'm aware this would make little difference. A no-chill 60 minute addition isn't getting any further IBUs from no chill.

-- unless you are shortening your boil to 45min which saves you gas/power.

 

[Nick JD]

But whether or not the hops are removed from the wort the acids are insommerised which keeps contributing bitterness. So when no chilling and flameout hops are added, most would plug this into their software as a 10-20 minute addition.

I suppose the way to test it would be to dip your hops in for ten minutes at the start of the boil. See if it gets just as bitter as leaving them in for 60 minutes, and if it doesn't - how long does that dip need to be to equal leaving them in for the whole boil?

I'm gonna say removing hops and then no chilling adds a little bit more bitterness, but not a significant amount really at all.

 

[felten]

If you were to wait say 30 minutes for the convection currents to stop then whirlpool and wait another 30 minutes for everything to settle out then find you get a reading of 95C then theoretically havnt you just added another 60 minutes of insomerisation to your hops, in term adding bitterness?

Isomerisation continues for sure, but at a greatly decreased rate as the temperature drops from boiling. It really depends on your system, you might find you are getting full isomerisation leaving them that long at that temp.

 

[Nick JD]

Isomerisation continues for sure, but at a greatly decreased rate as the temperature drops from boiling. It really depends on your system, you might find you are getting full isomerisation leaving them that long at that temp.

I might try a batch where I leave the hops in for only 10 minutes at the start of the boil (hops to arrive at 30IBU) and see how it turns out. I have some isohops so it wouldn't be difficult to fix.

EDIT: at this stage (being a hop-taker-outerer) I reckon I'd get 15 IBUs at a stretch, maybe less.

 

[Midnight Brew]

Isomerisation continues for sure, but at a greatly decreased rate as the temperature drops from boiling. It really depends on your system, you might find you are getting full isomerisation leaving them that long at that temp.

Im guessing, just guessing, that because around an hour after flameout I've finished waiting for the convection currents and whirlpooling I've measured the temp of my wort to be 95C. I think I would get nearly full insomerisation from them. If this is the case I guess I could half my FWH or bittering addition and add it at flameout.

After an hour of steeping in 95C wort would I lose alot of those aromatics that are desired? If so the best way for a late hop hit in my no chill system would be ULH/French Press.

 

[manticle]

Digging again...

Because the wort is still at 85-90 degrees, do you calculate that as addition + 45 minutes?

I've notcied when no chilling and whirlpooling that my wort is still at 95c an hour after the boil. Do I calculate a 10 minute addition as 25 minutes or 60+ minutes?

Really?

Mine is at about 80 when it goes into the cube. 10-20 min wait for convection, whirlpool then 10-20 min wait for it all to settle.

I make up my own recipes so I don't worry about realculating late additions as anything. 10 mins is 10 mins to me. I recently bought a plate chiller so when I start using it (will still be no chilling when it suits) I'll possibly have to re-examine recipe design for chilling. I do add 0 min hops to the whirlpool so temp has dropped significantly by that time.

It's hard to find definitive information about what actual temperature alpha acids stop isomerising - possibly because it may not actually stop (pure conjecture on my part) but just slow to negligible.

I'm sure there must be a graph or sliding scale or calculation somewhere but I'm not sure where. Fix says that alpha acids are poorly soluble in wort (so not completely insoluble) but at what point isomerisation begins (and at what rate) is interesting.

I'm sure the info must be around somewhere as large commercial breweries will have some hot wort sitting around at high temps for up to 25 minutes while the rest of it is pumped through the heat exchanger into the fermenting vessel.

Alpha acids are the main contributor of bitterness to wort but not the only contributor.

I know from personal experience that even running through a plate chiller (so some wort stays hot as suggested above), you will get less bitterness than no chilling identical wort. I believe Thirsty Boy may have measured how much at his work at some point.

The only real way to tell about bittering, unless you can measure IBU, (and flavour/aroma will be a lot harder to quantify) is to try the methods out without changing the recipe and see what you prefer.

 

[felten]

There's some good isomerisation threads on the probrewer forum, IE http://www.probrewer.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=19619

Theres a few papers out there by Malowicki & Shellhammer which go into the subject in depth as well.

 

[sean_0]

There's some good isomerisation threads on the probrewer forum, IE http://www.probrewer.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=19619

Theres a few papers out there by Malowicki & Shellhammer which go into the subject in depth as well.

I've heard both the Meantime and Epic brewers on the brewing network speak about whirlpool hop isomerisation - check out the relevant 'Can you brew it" podcasts. I can recall the Meantime brewer saying that they had to do extensive testing to see what sort of utilisation they were getting in the whirlpool, and that they were surprised by how much it was - would seem to imply that it's not an exact science.

 

[Midnight Brew]

I think because its around 50L of wort in an 80L aluminium pot the heat stays consistant.

My current process is FWH and French Press 4-5 days into ferment and thats it. So I'm yet to brew with the no chill method with late additions.

Felten, I found these to be an interesting posts:
jfulton

vbmenu_register("postmenu_62058", true); Registered User Whirlpool hops are not going to have a significant effect on IBUs, at least with standard whirlpooling practices. The relatively cooler wort, the already high level of isomerized acid, and the fact that the hops settle into the cone, not being turned over in convection, will greatly reduce utilization. I find it hard to believe that any brewery is getting near 20% of their bitterness from a whirlpool addition. However, I have heard of some brewers that whirlpool for like 45 minutes, before even beginning the rest

! That's another issue altogether though...
gdebisschop

vbmenu_register("postmenu_62206", true); Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 56 It only makes sense that whirlpool additions add bu's- if you're above isomerization temp, alot of that wort will be there for a considerable amount of time. When I was at Siebel we had "old school" beer guys teaching full utilization for all additions, and all the craft guys (myself included) shrugged it off as old school thinking. Years later we did some analysis and found that at the brewery I was working in (which did have relatively long knockout times) all additions were more or less at the same % utilization- at least from lab feedback and our calculations that's what we backed into.
gdebisschop

vbmenu_register("postmenu_62206", true); Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 56 It only makes sense that whirlpool additions add bu's- if you're above isomerization temp, alot of that wort will be there for a considerable amount of time. When I was at Siebel we had "old school" beer guys teaching full utilization for all additions, and all the craft guys (myself included) shrugged it off as old school thinking. Years later we did some analysis and found that at the brewery I was working in (which did have relatively long knockout times) all additions were more or less at the same % utilization- at least from lab feedback and our calculations that's what we backed into.