Ingredient Ratios

[Pete2501]

Hi All,

Intro
This will be my first for a couple things. First time using liquid yeast. First time using unhopped liquid malt. First time conditioning a beer for longer than a couple weeks. First time I've had a couple of kegs of beer to stop be drinking this beer too quickly.

Body
In Beersmith the 0.8kg of crystal doesn't effect the IBU that much. I would have thought that it'd have more of an impact. Also in beersmith the maximum amount of crystal is listed as 20% of the grain bill. I searched for beer ingredient ratios hoping to find some beer math related topics but I didn't find any yet. Is there such a thing an ingredient ratio?

Flavour
I'm chasing a robust caramel taste that isn't sweet with late hop flavours of citrus and flower. I read on the forums that 1332 should bring out the malty flavours which would be tops. If I get something of a biscuit undertone out of this then great but I'm not stressing about it because this is more an exercise in process.

Recipe
1.70 kg Pale Liquid Extract (15.8 EBC) Extract 40.48 %
1.70 kg Wheat Liquid Extract (15.8 EBC) Extract 40.48 %
0.80 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (118.2 EBC) Grain 19.05 %
15.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] (60 min) Hops 18.7 IBU
15.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] (15 min) Hops 9.3 IBU
15.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] (5 min) Hops 3.7 IBU
35.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] (Dry Hop 7 days) Hops -
1 Pkgs Northwest Ale (Wyeast Labs #1332) Yeast-Ale Smacked this morning. h34r:

Closing
Thoughts, abuse, rants etc. are all welcome. Any time you spare is time appreciated.

 

[Screwtop]

Hi All,

Intro
This will be my first for a couple things. First time using liquid yeast. First time using unhopped liquid malt. First time conditioning a beer for longer than a couple weeks. First time I've had a couple of kegs of beer to stop be drinking this beer too quickly.

Body
In Beersmith the 0.8kg of crystal doesn't effect the IBU that much. I would have thought that it'd have more of an impact. Also in beersmith the maximum amount of crystal is listed as 20% of the grain bill. I searched for beer ingredient ratios hoping to find some beer math related topics but I didn't find any yet. Is there such a thing an ingredient ratio?

Flavour
I'm chasing a robust caramel taste that isn't sweet with late hop flavours of citrus and flower. I read on the forums that 1332 should bring out the malty flavours which would be tops. If I get something of a biscuit undertone out of this then great but I'm not stressing about it because this is more an exercise in process.

Recipe
1.70 kg Pale Liquid Extract (15.8 EBC) Extract 40.48 %
1.70 kg Wheat Liquid Extract (15.8 EBC) Extract 40.48 %
0.80 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (118.2 EBC) Grain 19.05 %
15.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] (60 min) Hops 18.7 IBU
15.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] (15 min) Hops 9.3 IBU
15.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] (5 min) Hops 3.7 IBU
35.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] (Dry Hop 7 days) Hops -
1 Pkgs Northwest Ale (Wyeast Labs #1332) Yeast-Ale Smacked this morning. h34r:

Closing
Thoughts, abuse, rants etc. are all welcome. Any time you spare is time appreciated.

Depends on what you like in a beer, if you're making 22 odd litres using this recipe the OG would have to be around 1.050 to 1.053. Your 1332 yeast attenuates good fermentable wort at around 70% finishing at around 1.015.

Your recipe using liquid extract (fermentability around 70%) and 19% of crystal this beer would finish high and be quite sweet, maybe even as high as 1.022

Cheers,

Screwy

 

[reviled]

Personally id probably look at dropping the crystal to 10-12% mixed with the unfermentables in the extract should give you a nice American Amber

The 1332 is a great yeast, makes the malt come up front and gives the hop character a different twist to US-05!

 

[Pete2501]

Depends on what you like in a beer, if you're making 22 odd litres using this recipe the OG would have to be around 1.050 to 1.053. Your 1332 yeast attenuates good fermentable wort at around 70% finishing at around 1.015.

Your recipe using liquid extract (fermentability around 70%) and 19% of crystal this beer would finish high and be quite sweet, maybe even as high as 1.022

Cheers,

Screwy

I'd don't want it to be sweet but still want a dark colour so I might need to get some other crystal. Cheers Screwtop.

Personally id probably look at dropping the crystal to 10-12% mixed with the unfermentables in the extract should give you a nice American Amber

The 1332 is a great yeast, makes the malt come up front and gives the hop character a different twist to US-05!

What kind of twist? I'm used to mellow hop flavours that compliments the malt backbone which is the real star of the show. Here's a post about the yeast giving off tart flavours. http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/forum/vie...f=6&t=13854 Is that what you're referring too?


I'll be trying to keep the temperatures as low as possible me thinks.

 

[manticle]

My first AG brew was an All amarillo American Brown which I'm continually tweaking to try and nail into a house ale.

The recipe is here: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...&recipe=898. I have alternated with US05 and 1056. Next one will be 1272.

I have also played around with the hops additions as I'm trying to get the right balance between bitter and sweet. This version came up well but I'd knock back the bittering additions a tad.

It comes out with citrus from the amarillo and nuts from the biscuit (mentioned in the notes as it's not available from the drop down menu). The munich has not been added to every version and I don't think it's necessary. The amount of crystal is much less than your recipe.

To convert to extract take the pale malts and replace with the appropriate amount of extract to hit your preferred gravity. Biscuit needs to be mashed but in such a small quantity you could get away with a good hot steep if you can keep the temp for at least 30 minutes (between 62 and 68). See if dropping or lessening the choc malt gives you the amber colour you're after.

 

[Pete2501]

My first AG brew was an All amarillo American Brown which I'm continually tweaking to try and nail into a house ale.

The recipe is here: http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...&recipe=898. I have alternated with US05 and 1056. Next one will be 1272.

I have also played around with the hops additions as I'm trying to get the right balance between bitter and sweet. This version came up well but I'd knock back the bittering additions a tad.

It comes out with citrus from the amarillo and nuts from the biscuit (mentioned in the notes as it's not available from the drop down menu). The munich has not been added to every version and I don't think it's necessary. The amount of crystal is much less than your recipe.

To convert to extract take the pale malts and replace with the appropriate amount of extract to hit your preferred gravity. Biscuit needs to be mashed but in such a small quantity you could get away with a good hot steep if you can keep the temp for at least 30 minutes (between 62 and 68). See if dropping or lessening the choc malt gives you the amber colour you're after.

In my search for information I ended up having a look at this recipe and found it rather interesting. I was actually going to refer to your recipe in my original post but held back thinking I was writing to much of a story than a question. The 1332 should act as a counter balance as it's meant to bring out the malty flavours rather than highlighting the ingredients like US05. Not sure about 1272 though.

After taking everything in, the hope is with a reduced crystal addition (10%) I'll still get that malty caramel flavour without a perception of too much sweetness thanks to the 1332. Even though the IBU isn't that high I should get some good Amarillo aromas thanks to the dry hop at the end which will hopefully mask any over sweet tastes or I could use the biscuit for that as well. However the real goal is to start with a good base and then add hop aromas and biscuit to that instead.

There are so many good ideas and words of advice to take in here it's getting the right balance I'm excited about. A big focus on keeping the temp down using 1332 and making sure it isn't too sweet should bring out the nice malt back bone with the subtle hint of citrus and biscuit.

I think a few more brews and I'll end up going AG at this rate. I feel like I'm being held back a little.

Thanks again for all the replies so far.

 

[manticle]

Nothing wrong with taking your time. AG is not the pinnacle of good brewing and it certainly isn't the end of learning.

It's great fun, well worth it and can make superb beer but getting your understandings of things going well first is not being held back - it's being thorough. Best of luck with whichever way you go.

 

[Tony]

Ahhh yes.... a good question!

Ratios!

Its a dificult one to explain because learing about what ratios work best comes with experience. You will be lucky to find a set of guidelines on ratio's to use because this will change between styles, brewers taste, even the water chemistry will change what you need for a given result in the beer.

So where do you go from there?

20% max for crystal is a fair call..... but this is a max value and will be at the extreme end of the scale. 10% will give a great character to the beer and i usually use around 7 to 8% in a beer like a porter or a Bitter. You said the crystal didnt effect the bitterness in the beersmith recipe. It will and it wont. In the software...... it gives you a value of bitterness calculated on the amount of acids that will be imparted to the beer in the boil. If you use no crystal or 20% crystal this will be around the same value. But......... the two beers will be completly different. It can be called Percieved bitterness or "ballance" which is a word i prefer. We can make a bitter beer but ballance (or cancel out) some of the bitterness by adding some sweetness which is the oposite of bitter. Easy really.

A bit off topic but a great thing to get to know is the BU:GU or Bitterness Unit:Gravity Unit ratio.

Say you have a beer of 1.050 and its bittered to 25 IBU...... thats 25:50 which is a ratio of 0.5.

Its easy to work out a basic ratio average from the BJCP guidelines for any beer style you may want to brew. 0.5 will be fairly nutral...... megaswill type bitterness, English bitter is typicly 0.8, Guiness is up around 0.95 i think..... as is Pilsner Erquell. If you made a Pils to 1.050 and 45 IBU you would be close on the money..... its that easy! I only raise this because you quoted ingredients but no gravity or bitterness figures which are critical in recipe formulation.

How to get it right.......... this takes experience.

Information and Knowledge are 2 different things. Knowledge is better gained via experience. There is a lot of information out there and the best way to sort the good from the bad is to try it yourself and learn from it.

You need to brew brew and brew some more. document everything, only make small changes to a recipe and note the difference it makes to the final product.

I look at your recipe and think......... Oooooooooo thats not going to work!

The hops are all good...... malt extract won't ferment well if used 100%, adding to sweetness due to poor attenuation. Adding crystal which adds more sweetness will make the beer cloying and not so enjoyable.

I would use the pale malt extract and dextrose to get the final gravity down, and say 8% crystal to start with. If you want it darker, add 1% chocolate malt. in small amounts it will not add character... just a deep ruby colour.

hope this helps a bit and welcome to the world of balancing beers.

PS..... buy "Brewing Great Beers" by Ray Daniels........ its great for info on amounts of what to use for a lot of styles. a must for anyone interested in this facet of brewing.

CHeers

 

[glaab]

the unhopped cans are usually 1.5kg

 

[Tony]

Recipe:

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 23.00 Wort Size (L): 23.00
Total Grain (kg): 2.99
Anticipated OG: 1.043 Plato: 10.67
Anticipated EBC: 19.2
Anticipated IBU: 27.8
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
56.9 1.70 kg. Coopers LME - Light Australia 1.038 7
33.4 1.00 kg. Corn Sugar Generic 1.046 0
8.4 0.25 kg. TF Crystal UK 1.034 145
1.3 0.04 kg. TF Chocolate Malt UK 1.033 900

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
15.00 g. Amarillo Gold Pellet 8.50 16.4 60 min.
15.00 g. Amarillo Gold Pellet 8.50 8.1 15 min.
15.00 g. Amarillo Gold Pellet 8.50 3.3 5 min.
35.00 g. Amarillo Gold Pellet 8.50 0.0 Dry Hop

 

[Pete2501]

Wow guys I didn't expect so many replies.

@manticle I get too excited about beer some times. My poor LHBS owner must get tired of me some times. I end up waiting for the entire shop to be empty some times just so I can talk with him about beer or yeast or something related to beer. He's a pretty cool guy. Really into beer as well so it's easy to want to hang around.

I'll save my AG virginity for went the time is right though. :icon_chickcheers:

@Tony Wow dude that's a whole jar of awesome sauce you poured onto the forums and luckily it landed here. Bitterness ratio is so not off topic. That was the topic I read about yesterday here that lead me to making this post. Bitterness ratio was on my mind but felt I could handle this using beersmith. It was the grain/extract base I don't have a handle on which I'm glad you touched on. I'll get some chocolate to achieve the EBC I need and look into other avenues like dextrose for the required OG while avoiding perceived sweetness. Also cheers for the book advice. I'll pick that up the same time I get another recommended brewing book by John Palmer.
*added "Brewing Great Beers" by Ray Daniels to the book list*

@glaab My LHBS sells them in 1.7kg cans h34r: TWOC It's my favourite store.

You guys are great. Cheers for all your replies.

 

[Pennywise]

Just thought I'd post up a linky of something I use as a referance alot. Just adding to Tony's bloody good post really. http://beercolor.netfirms.com/balance.html

 

[MarkBastard]

Trust Tony, he knows how to make a good amber ale.

A little bit of choc and halve the crystal is good advice IMO.

 

[dicko]

Wow guys I didn't expect so many replies.

@manticle I get too excited about beer some times. My poor LHBS owner must get tired of me some times. I end up waiting for the entire shop to be empty some times just so I can talk with him about beer or yeast or something related to beer. He's a pretty cool guy. Really into beer as well so it's easy to want to hang around.

I'll save my AG virginity for went the time is right though. :icon_chickcheers:

@Tony Wow dude that's a whole jar of awesome sauce you poured onto the forums and luckily it landed here. Bitterness ratio is so not off topic. That was the topic I read about yesterday here that lead me to making this post. Bitterness ratio was on my mind but felt I could handle this using beersmith. It was the grain/extract base I don't have a handle on which I'm glad you touched on. I'll get some chocolate to achieve the EBC I need and look into other avenues like dextrose for the required OG while avoiding perceived sweetness. Also cheers for the book advice. I'll pick that up the same time I get another recommended brewing book by John Palmer.
*added "Brewing Great Beers" by Ray Daniels to the book list*

@glaab My LHBS sells them in 1.7kg cans h34r: TWOC It's my favourite store.

You guys are great. Cheers for all your replies.

Hi Pete 2501

Re the book by Ray Daniels I think Tony would have been referring to "Designing Great Beers"
This might make your search a bit easier if using an alphabetical list
Good luck and have fun.

 

[Screwtop]

Just thought I'd post up a linky of something I use as a referance alot. Just adding to Tony's bloody good post really. http://beercolor.netfirms.com/balance.html

This is a good link, to a very important formula, and one I always use. Have my own spreadsheet using the bitterness/sweetness formula that I use to calculate bitterness levels for a recipe.

As Tony pointed out, beer and beer styles are about balance. Different styles will be more to one end of the scale or the other but will still be balanced. After calculating your OG the next most important figure for the brewer is predicting the FG of the finished beer. This depends upon the brewers choice of ingredients (fermentability of malts selected) and his mash regime as well as his system, then most importantly his choice and knowledge (of it's behavior) of his yeast of choice. Once the FG can be predicted then the level of bitterness can be adjusted to balance the finished beer. There are yeast strains that scrub bitterness, some that are basically neutral, some accentuate malt, many produce esters, most behave differently at varying fermentation temps. So the choice of yeast must be taken into account when targeting bitterness also.

Cara/Crystal malts are designed to add colour, flavour and sweetness to finished beer. How do you add sweetness to beer when yeast ferment the sugars? By adding less fermentable sugars by way of dextrinous malts (such as Cara/Crystal malts)and/or additions of less fermentable adjuncts. Dextrinous malts such as Carapils or adjuncts such as Maltodextrin for instance add less fermentable sugars without adding much in the way of colour and flavour.

Including dextrose or sucrose (sugar) or syrups in fermentables works in reverse and reduces the FG as sucrose is more fermentable, so a beer of say OG 1.050 including a percentage of sugar will finish at a lower FG than one of OG 1.050 containing all base malt, and a wort of 1.050 containing a percentage of less fermentable malts such as Cara/Crystal malts will finish at a higher FG. The FG in all cases will depend upon the percentage of sucrose or less fermentable malts used.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Screwy

 

[Pete2501]

@Homebrewer79 That's a nice read. I also don't know why I hadn't thought of checking the http://www.bjcp.org/stylecenter.php until now. Thanks for the link that was great. I feel like I can take on board a lot more information now, like the brain is half empty waiting for more information. I'm looking forward to brewing today like you wouldn't beleive.

@Mark^******* By the length of his post including all the info and the second post including a recipe I'd have to concur with you there.

@dicko Sweet dude. I should be able to get it in no time now.

@Screwtop That helps cement the ingredient ratio answers in place just perfectly.


Oviously thank you for all the posts above and if I can find the camera I'll be posting some beer pr0n pics of how things go.

 

[Pete2501]

I'm reading through the 2008 BJCP guidelines and biscuity flavours aren't listed in an Amber Ale. They're in Pale Ales but nothing was said for the Amber Ales. I'll chase down some darker grain this morning to get my colour and I have other sugars on the shelf.

 

[Tony]

Thanks Dicko....... yeah i ment Designing great beers. It was late and i was tired

Never readed Palmer

Another great book is New Brewing lager beers by Gregory J Noonan. It doesnt have recipes........ but method and science are well looked into. You sound like your hungry for info..... i loved this book.

cheers

 

[manticle]

Never read Palmer

Never REED or never RED?

 

[Tony]

there, fixed!