Increase Boil Length?

[Barge]

G'day

Apart from wort darkening, what problem would I have increasing the boil length to deal with low efficiency.

I'm still trying to nail down my technique and have brewed with efficiencies from 40% - 60% with the same gear. I've planned on 40L at 60% and boil down to 36L for a O.G. of 1.046. If I get 40% though, I thought I could just boil it down to hit something like 27L.

I'm doing a 'red ale' using 100g of roasted barley which I will steep separately to avoid overly darkening the wort. The rest of the bill is 7.2kg of pale, 1.25kg of light munich and .45kg of wheat.

Any thoughts appreciated.

Cheers,
Barge

 

[KoNG]

i think that much variance in your system is a concern, even in the early stages... and 40% is quite low no matter what.
You might be better off explaining your system and process, to get some ideas on whats causing the problems first.

In essence there shouldnt be many problems with what your doing, except you'll be losing alot of beer :lol:
if you can get your hands on a refrac, that will help you decide how much to boil down before you start your bittering.

You could always work out your pre boil SG and just bitter the wort accordingly.? that way you still get your 36L, but you'll be getting a "Red Mild" instead.

edit: or you could even dump some dex in at 60 minutes to get your OG right.?

KoNG
OuT

 

[newguy]

I agree with Kong - you should try to sort out why your efficiency is a) low and B) variable first.

There is nothing wrong with doing an extended boil. It accentuates dark malt flavour/complexity and is standard practice for me with Scottish ales, bocks, barleywines, and Belgian darks. Instead of my standard 90 minute boil, I usually boil for 50% longer for these styles. Except for my last barleywine, which I boiled for 3 hours (honest).

 

[bugwan]

Barge, what processes do you use before getting to the kettle? ie. Best to focus on the following techniques/details (as already mentioned);

What is your grain to liquid ratio?
What are you using for your Mash tun? Is it sufficiently insulated?
Strike temps - are you hitting temps ok?
Mash temperature - are you maintaining correct temps for the duration of the mash?
Mashing length - too short possibly?
Sparge technique - batch or fly?

I don't mean to complicate things, but they're just a few things that may affect efficiency into the kettle.

Cheers!

 

[BenH]

The other way you can 'deal' with low efficiency is to increase your malt bill. But I agree with kong, 40% is quite low. What 'system' and technique are you running for your mash?

 

[Barge]

I use a 27L rectangular esky with a straight length of ss braid as a manifold. It drops about 2 degrees over an hour. I test with iodine for conversion. I'm pretty good hitting strike temp, I keep a full kettle to add up to a couple of litres of boiling water. The first brew was a few degrees under (about 64-5) but still had decent efficiency. I mash between 2.2 - 2.6 L/kg and batch sparge at about 3-4 L/kg. I tweak the ratios to suit the amount of grain and target o.g. (the more grain the lower the ratio, etc). Also, I batch sparge by running off the water from the mash (no mash out), adding sparge water, rest 20 min, run off, add more sparge water, rest and run off. When I run-off I open the tap full bore. I've read conflicting reports on this but it seems for batch sparging this is OK. The last thing I can think of is the crush. I've brewed with grain from the HBS at Manly and Annerley. I've never seen any other crush before so I don't know if they're doing it properly. I'll take a photo of the latest effort and post it for comment.

I'm yet to brew the same beer twice so I should prob. do that to get a handle on my system.

I'm going to brew on sunday so i'm just after a method to account for low efficiency. I'd rather boil off water than add malt extract or dextrose, to keep the beer 'all grain'. But I don't want to do this if it'll stuff something up.

 

[bigfridge]

I use a 27L rectangular esky with a straight length of ss braid as a manifold. It drops about 2 degrees over an hour. I test with iodine for conversion. I'm pretty good hitting strike temp, I keep a full kettle to add up to a couple of litres of boiling water. The first brew was a few degrees under (about 64-5) but still had decent efficiency. I mash between 2.2 - 2.6 L/kg and batch sparge at about 3-4 L/kg. I tweak the ratios to suit the amount of grain and target o.g. (the more grain the lower the ratio, etc). Also, I batch sparge by running off the water from the mash (no mash out), adding sparge water, rest 20 min, run off, add more sparge water, rest and run off. When I run-off I open the tap full bore. I've read conflicting reports on this but it seems for batch sparging this is OK. The last thing I can think of is the crush. I've brewed with grain from the HBS at Manly and Annerley. I've never seen any other crush before so I don't know if they're doing it properly. I'll take a photo of the latest effort and post it for comment.

Nothing obvious here.

What is the gravity of your last runnings ? ie the last cup of wort before your tun runs dry.

Dave

 

[Ross]

Hi Barge,

Looking at your first post, my concerns are your boil loss - you say you are boiling down from 40L to 36L. That is a tiny boil off & could well be giving you an apparent low efficiency. All your other sparging techniques look spot on & with batch sparging it's very hard to stuff you efficiency.
Are you doing a full 90 min rolling boil? This could make a huge difference to your results.

Cheers Ross

 

[Stuster]

I batch sparge by running off the water from the mash (no mash out), adding sparge water, rest 20 min, run off, add more sparge water, rest and run off. When I run-off I open the tap full bore.

You don't mention stirring. Do you stir well at mash in, and make sure any dough balls are broken up? Do you give it a good stir after adding the sparge water?

There's no reason to give it a 20 minute rest after adding the sparge water when batch sparging. Conversion has already happened and all you are doing it washing out the sugars, so a rest serves no purpose. Give it 5 minutes if you want (0 minutes is fine ) and then recirculate and sparge. You can run off with the tap fully open, but it's probably best to get it running clear with a slower run-off while you are recirculating and then let it rip.

 

[Trent]

Hi Barge,

Looking at your first post, my concerns are your boil loss - you say you are boiling down from 40L to 36L. That is a tiny boil off & could well be giving you an apparent low efficiency.

Cheers Ross

Ross
I usually only lose about 4L/hour in my system, rather than a certain percentage or anything. It probably is a fairly low amount, but it works for my system, I think it may have something to do with the kettle shape and size of the opening?
Anyway, back on topic - I found when I first started and used a braid for my manifold, I was getting fairly low efficiencies, but since moving up to a proper copper manifold that looks like 4 I's together (IIII), with loads of slots cut into the bottom, my efficiencies improved. Apart from that, it is difficult to tell why you would be getting such low numbers, and more importantly, such a crazy variation. Even if you were to only ever get 40%, you could add in an extra 2kg or so of base malt, and still hit your targets. Consistency is the first thing you should be trying to work on, IMO. And when running off, I would do it slower rather than full bore, clearer wort, and MAY help with your consistency.
All the best
Trent

 

[razz]

Barge you haven't mentioned your sparge water temp.

 

[Barge]

Thanks for all your replies.

I must admit that I don't go nuts stirring the grain in. I haven't noticed any dough balls but they may not be so obvious.

I usually sparge with the temp dictated by BeerSmith. It usually ends up around boiling.

I currently do a 60 min rolling boil. I lose hardly any to trub due to pickup tube and estimate about 9%/hr from boil.

I'll give it a run tomorrow with vigorous stirring at dough in, modified sparge and I'll plan for a 90 min boil and see how it goes.

My biggest constraint has been time so I'll make sure I slow down and nail each step.

Thanks again for all your help.

I'll keep you posted.

Cheers

 

[bigfridge]

I usually sparge with the temp dictated by BeerSmith. It usually ends up around boiling.

Sparge water should be less than 75 C - nowhere near boiling.

 

[Stuster]

Sparge water should be less than 75 C - nowhere near boiling.

Not really true for batch sparging (which he is). As long as the grain doesn't get hotter than 76C, you avoid the risk of tannin extraction. It's pretty hard to do with my system, although I'm not sure about using boiling water. :unsure: 80-85C water as a starting point should be fine with most systems IMO. You can then fine tune it through experience.

 

[Ross]

Not really true for batch sparging (which he is). As long as the grain doesn't get hotter than 76C, you avoid the risk of tannin extraction. It's pretty hard to do with my system, although I'm not sure about using boiling water. :unsure: 80-85C water as a starting point should be fine with most systems IMO. You can then fine tune it through experience.

Yep, with batch sparging it isn't a problem - I add 98c water to my grain & it sits at approc 78c when mixed. Even higher temps won't cause astringancy with batch sparging. Anyhow, this will have stuff all effect on lowering efficiency, which is what the problem is

cheers Ross

 

[Jazzafish]

How are you calculating your efficiency? Can you post the recipe and all the data you are using to get your results? Could be a calculation error?

I had a low hydrometer reading once, only to find out my hydrometer was cracked at the bottom!

 

[Barge]

Here it is,

Recipe: Icy Red
Brewer: Barge
Asst Brewer: Rell, Harry @ Bubby
Style: Irish Red Ale
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (50.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 33.00 L
Boil Size: 39.53 L
Estimated OG: 1.052 SG
Estimated Color: 13.9 SRM
Estimated IBU: 32.8 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 60.0 %
Boil Time: 70 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
7.20 kg Pale Malt, Ale (Barrett Burston) (3.0 SRM) Grain 80.0 %
1.25 kg Munich Malt - Wynnum HBS (7.1 SRM) Grain 13.9 %
0.45 kg Wheat Malt - Wynnum HBS (2.0 SRM) Grain 5.0 %
0.10 kg Roasted Barley (Joe White) (710.0 SRM) Grain 1.1 %
28.00 gm Pride of Ringwood [8.00%] (60 min) Hops 18.1 IBU
30.00 gm Fuggles [4.50%] (70 min) (First Wort Hop) Hops 12.4 IBU
20.00 gm Fuggles [4.50%] (30 min) Hops 5.6 IBU
1 Pkgs SafAle English Ale (DCL Yeast #S-04) [CulturedYeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 9.00 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temp Step Time
Mash In Add 21.60 L of water at 74.8 C 67.0 C 60 min

______________________________________________________________________

Rightyo,

All in all a succesful brew day.

I stirred the grain in over at least 10 minutes , breaking up all dough balls. The crush was the best yet and looking back, the lowest efficiencies came from grain from the Manly HBS. (No offence Bruce )

I missed the mash temp by 1 degree after adding extra boiling water, which is ok. I placed a layer of alfoil over the mash and it only dropped 0.3 degrees. BTW, got my hands on a digital thermometer which helped alot (esp, with hydrometer readings).

I had a couple of silly losses (tap open, overfilled tun at sparge) but managed to collect 38.5L at 1.043 which works out to about 60% according to BeerSmith.

The boil was fine. I boiled for 70 minutes and ended up with 33L. I'm doing the no chill method so I'll take a reading tomorrow but it should come out alright.

I really think that my biggest problems were inconsistent crush and poor mash-in technique which were sorted out today.

Thanks again for all the advice, it's a huge help.

Cheers,
Barge