Imperial Triple 16%

[Swinging Beef]

In my quest for tasty strong belgian beers, Ive managed to make lovely pale Belgian quaffers up to 10%, so far.
After that, the waters get murky and the beers seem to be a little too sweet and hard to drink.

Im keen to see what you guys think of the idea of an Imperial Triple of around the 16 -18% abv mark.

What sage words of advice would you offer for brewing this kind of a beer?
(dont.. is not an option)

Im thinking I would up the bitterness by 25% on a regular triple
About 25% wheat in the grist to contribute to dryness, and head retention in this hi alcohol environment.
Mash low and raise temps up from 35deg to 63 deg for one hour for full conversion.
Use two mash tuns to avoid a stuck mash based on the huge grain bill.
Plan on a long boil, say three hours.
Buy shares in CSR before I go and buy the sugar component of the grist.
Use a one litre reliable slurry monster to kick off fermentation.
Ferment at 18degreez for a week then let it raise up to 25degreez to clean up.

 

[felten]

Have a listen to the can you brew it episode on the dogfish head 120min IPA, 18% beer, 120 IBUs according to their website.

They boil for 120 min and add hops in every 3m, then dryhop 6g every day, along with the sugar, something along those lines anyway.

I don't think you would want to make and ferment an 18% beer without having a large portion of the sugar added during the fermentation, I imagine it would throw some huge fusels and off flavours even if you ramped down on the ferm temp.

 

[Swinging Beef]

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/can-you-br...ute-ipa-178063/

I like some of the iedeas given here.
Very nice, indeed.

40% dex AG beer! Stick that in your 3V!

 

[Sammus]

dont

 

[raven19]

I listened to that podcase not long ago, and one thing that stuck in my mind was Tasty's notion of making a big batch. His thoughts iirc were there's no point doing such a big beer in a small batch size, same effort for a large batch - and you can then sample a bottle every month for a long (long) time.

I guess you could max out both your mash tuns and go from there.

 

[j1gsaw]

I too tried to achieve a 20% monster, but managed 11%. That involved a fair bit of stuffing around too, including 10 day feeding of belgian candy sugar, and champagne yeast to finish it off.

 

[drtomc]

Surely attenuation, attenuation, attenuation is going to be the key, as it is for anything strong in the belgian tradition.

I don't know if there is any basis for doing this, but...

One of the things that happens in a cereal mash is that the part of the grist that goes through the cereal mash gets mashed twice - once high, and once low. One of the benefits of doing this is, if I understand correctly, to get the cereal portion of the grist really fermentable. Perhaps this could be applied in this context - mash (e.g.) half the grist high, then mix it with the rest of the grist (and perhaps then split it between your two tuns) and mash low. After all, you want a really really fermentable wort.

Another thought is to use some non-saccharomyces bugs to improve the attenuation. Once scenario could be to ferment sans sugar; inoculate with brettanomyces, or other wild bugs which will consume carbohydrates that are left behind by the saccharomyces; then add the sugar and fresh yeast that will go the distance.

The things that would need careful consideration are selecting appropriate strains of sacch; and waiting long enough for the brettanomyces to do it's slow thing. I'm not any kind of expert, but you might use a yeast with plenty of character to kick off, then one of the Wyeast Brettanomyces cultures (or lots of Orval dregs - what a shame, having to empty all those bottles of Orval), then a champagne style yeast for the final leg.

T.

 

[Sammus]

adequate airation will be important. I would even conject that without a O2 system you won't get the dissolved oxygen levels required for that kind of attenuation.

 

[Scruffy]

Some words

 

[black_labb]

I'd do a big sparge of what's left to make a second batch.

I'd be tempted to ferment 1/3rd of the volume, then add another 2/3rds of the wort part way through. only really feasable if you are no chilling. Otherwise injecting oxygen early on is a good idea.

and yeast nutrients are a must.

If using champagne yeast I'd grow that in some wort before adding. I cant imagine it taking hold very easily at 12% with sg of 1040 or whatever from a pack of dried champagne yeast. add candy sugar/white sugar periodically.


In the tripel I've just bottled I cubed 19L @1073 and sparged 4L @ 1035. I used the 1035 to for the starter before adding the wort at 1073. I added 900g of sugar (homemade candi sugar) periodically during the ferment and finished at 1009. I think you will need to take more extreme measures to keep it fermenting though.

 

[Swinging Beef]

Much good advice, there, fellahs. Thanks.
My plan kinda looks like this:

23litre batch
7kg Pils
3kg wheat
.25kg melanoiden
2kg Sugar
2kg Dex
80gm Northern Brewer 60 min for 40IBU
40gm Saaz 1 minute for some aroma
Yeast nutrient
2litre Wyeast Ardenne Slurry
Turbo yeast on standby for stuck ferment if it wont get down below 1030
60% efficiency mash
SG 1149 FG 1020
Actual SG will be 1085, and then the Dex and Sugar will be added during the ferment to bring to a theoretical 1149

I will borrow a mash tun off a mate, that way I can split the mash into two 5kg batches for increased efficiency and less chance of a stuck mash.

2 hour mash starting at 45 deg for 1/2 an hour raising temp to 63 for 1 and 1/2hours
2 hour boil to increase sugar:water ratio

Ive made Tripple up to 10% before with a very similar grain bill. Im stupidly confident that the yeast will keep on cranking with progressive sugar additions.

 

[black_labb]

I'd be tempted to make a larger starter, or cube half of it to add part way through (aerating as its added so the yeast is nourished and can grow again). Thats just me though

 

[Swinging Beef]

I'd be tempted to make a larger starter, or cube half of it to add part way through (aerating as its added so the yeast is nourished and can grow again). Thats just me though

If I could be certian of sanitisation,I probably would, too.
Do you have much experience in HG beers?

 

[luckyeatwell]

Beef,

While not a regular contributor, I'm interested in the concept of this double-triple and I thought I'd share my most recent experiences with making a triple, inspired by Wesmalle triple (~10% ABV and 40 IBU).

I went for 90% belgian pils, 10% wheat malt (to a total of about 8.5Kg for a 28L batch)
40 IBU via 60 minutes of C-Saaz.
complete WLP-530 slury from a recent belgian single.

feremented @ 16 Deg. C for much of primary and raised to 22, 23 deg.C to finish.

Added 1 Kg of Dex (1/2 a kg X 2 sequential days) after a week of primary fermentation and high krausen seemed to be past.

Started @ 1083 (all grain, before adding the dex).

It finished at 1007 so up around 90% attenuation I think (and pushing the 9.5% - 10% mark).

I would attribute the attenuation to the triple infusion mash (50, 62 (1 hour), 70 (1 hour)). Not sure that a ramped mash from 45 - 63 will do everything you need for attenuation. I would suggest that taking that ramped temperature up to 70 would be necessary to getting the fermentability you're looking for.

It's been in the bottle for maybe a month now, and while not upset with it - I'm finding that there is a sweetness that is massive and in complete contradiction to the final gravity. Maybe it's alcohol driven, maybe it's the phenolics somehow enhancing it.
Either way, I'm not sure whether your 16% beer will be sweeter or drier for the gravity and %ABV your targeting.

The 40 IBU is also right up there and realy cuts through in the first sip but is less noticable there after - again the sweetness & phenolics seems to dominate.

If you're going a bigger beer - what IBU are you targetting ?

Edit: Sorry - should have read your recipe closer... 40 IBU. Sounds good.

Learning from my experience - I think maybe a higher fermentation temp (18 degrees as you suggest) would keep the phenolics at bay and enhance fruityness (BLAM suggests as much) and allow the dryness to prevail.

Keen to hear how it goes, keep us posted !

 

[brettprevans]

readfing about big arse barley wines this morning at breakkie and saw numberuous referances to aeration after high kraussen to assist in getting that attenuation and keeping yeast from producing nasties.

edit: ill see if i can magic up an ecopy of the relevant pages of the article.

 

[drsmurto]

Eis eis baby.... h34r:

 

[black_labb]

If I could be certian of sanitisation,I probably would, too.
Do you have much experience in HG beers?

'
Not much more than the recent tripel, and that isn't in this league. I dont know if I would trust a 2L starter though.
Have you thought about doing a belgian pale and pitching onto the yeast slurry or top cropping it onto the big tripel? This could be another way to get the neccesary numbers of viable yeast cells.

I wouldnt be too worried about Infection once the beer takes off*. beer at 16% isnt a great growing point for bacteria.

*I'm not saying skimp on sanitation practices, just that you dont need to do anything more than you would normally do.

 

[drtomc]

If you have smaller cubes you could use, you should just be able to split the batch at no-chilling time.

I had a bit of a read in Mosher last night, and +1 to a big lot of yeast. Even a whole yeast cake would not be out of order.

T.

 

[Swinging Beef]

thanks for the ongoing discussion.

Luckyeatwell... Im interested in this triple infusion mash. Never had much experience in this regard, and will ponder, and may even research, what it is all about.
In my experience with Belgian Triple, it is never that great to drink immediately, but, rather, much better after three months and before a year is out.

CM2, not sure how I would go aerating after a week or so, but I do have some effective, yet, controversial methods of wort aeration that I would be employing mid ferment, that I will never again be discussing on this forum.

Smurto.. Eisbier is revolting.

Labb... will be chucking in on litre yeast at commencement, then a 2nd litre of slurry later. It will have been 'primed' on some smaller beers, to be certain. Currently it lives in a witbier!

drtomc.. I reckon 2 litres pretty much will be an entire yeast cake

 

[sinkas]

If you have smaller cubes you could use, you should just be able to split the batch at no-chilling time.

I had a bit of a read in Mosher last night, and +1 to a big lot of yeast. Even a whole yeast cake would not be out of order.

T.

The problem is that then, the ferment can ealiy get out of hand, so you need very good cooling control, otherwise yourll end up with acetaldehyde soup, my compost has had 40 L of failed barely wine on it in the last few years, due to this