Improving on my first saison

[shacked]

I just force carbed my first attempt at a Saison and while it's a nice drop I'm keen to make it a little more citrusy and perhaps a little less clean. It's more like a belgian pale ale.

For the grist I used:

60% Pils
25.5% Rye
8.5% Dextrose
4% Wheat
~2% Caramunich I

I did a 10m rest at 50C, and then a 90m rest at 64C before mashing out at 76C for 10.

90m boil with 50g of Saaz (3% AA) at 60, 20g of Hallertau Mit (2.9% AA) at 45 and 20g of Hallertau Mit at flameout. Added whirfloc and WL yeast nutrient to the boil. Chilled and siphoned to a fermenter.

OG 1.050 and IBU was just under 25. I pitched a stepped up 800ml starter of yeast bay saison 1.

Fermentation started at 22C and stepped up to 27C by 1 degree per day. I then held it at 27C for a further 10 days before crashing for 48 hours and force carbing. FG (adjusted to 18C) was 1.006 and this was flat for the last 8 or 9 days.

The end result is a nice beer that is perhaps too clean and not dry enough. It is peppery maybe from the yeast and the rye. The rye gives it a thick mouthfeel that I like but maybe it's a bit too much for this style. There are limited citrus notes which I have liked in commercial examples.

Next time I was thinking of omitting (or reducing to ~10%) the rye from the grist and keeping a similar hop schedule. I might swap the yeast for something more citrusy or on the funky side.

Any other ideas or advice would be great!

 

[manticle]

Knock the rye right out and go very simple grist.
I like hall mitt for lemon character or tettnanger and/or styrians for orange or mandarin. Saisons can be well hopped with good bitterness and some late hops if desired - just avoid us hops and iipa levels unless you're specifically shooting for saison ipa blend.

Keep the grist super simple - pale and wheat only.
Play around with different yeasts. I like french saison 3711 but they all have different character.

 

[Batz]

Knock the rye right out and go very simple grist.
I like hall mitt for lemon character or tettnanger and/or styrians for orange or mandarin. Saisons can be well hopped with good bitterness and some late hops if desired - just avoid us hops and iipa levels unless you're specifically shooting for saison ipa blend.

Keep the grist super simple - pale and wheat only.
Play around with different yeasts. I like french saison 3711 but they all have different character.

Agree, the yeast is what Saisons are all about, I like w3711 and w 3726. I don't think the Rye would work for me.
My hop of choice for my Saisions are Hallertau Mittelfruh.
Let me know if you would like to see my grain bill, happy to help.


Batz

 

[shacked]

Agree, the yeast is what Saisons are all about, I like w3711 and w 3726. I don't think the Rye would work for me.
My hop of choice for my Saisions are Hallertau Mittelfruh.
Let me know if you would like to see my grain bill, happy to help.


Batz

Hey mate, yes please send me your grain bill. Any advice on the mash schedule?

 

[Bridges]

I've had great results fromWLP566 and like others have suggested no rye. Agree with Manticle for the grist, my saison is pilsner, wheat and just a touch of acidulated malt.
Saaz, EKG and Tettnanger hops of choice, never made one I haven't enjoyed.

 

[indica86]

Wyeast Biere De Garge has lovely tangerine tones...

 

[Hpal]

I've got a simple Saison which is great, No-Chill and using Belle-saison yeast which I think is excellent.
81% pils
15% wheat
4% carapils

Mash 64 deg
Northern Brewer at 40 mins to 18 IBU
Hallertau Mit 0.46 g/L at flameout

Ferment 25 deg

OG 1.043
FG 1.003

Nice recipe, I keep making it again and again. Use whatever European hops you have but keep them subtle and let the yeast make the beer.

 

[CmdrRyekr]

Wyeast Biere De Garge has lovely tangerine tones...

Which also then makes the beer a Biere De Garde, not a Saison

 

[Batz]

. Agree with Manticle for the grist, my saison is pilsner, wheat and just a touch of acidulated malt.

You have it right there!

 

[shacked]

I've had great results fromWLP566 and like others have suggested no rye. Agree with Manticle for the grist, my saison is pilsner, wheat and just a touch of acidulated malt.
Saaz, EKG and Tettnanger hops of choice, never made one I haven't enjoyed.

Thanks!

Thoughts on simple sugar? I got the idea from the brewing with style podcast on saison. Jamil recommends about 10% simple sugar to get the dryness

 

[shacked]

I've got a simple Saison which is great, No-Chill and using Belle-saison yeast which I think is excellent.
81% pils
15% wheat
4% carapils

Mash 64 deg
Northern Brewer at 40 mins to 18 IBU
Hallertau Mit 0.46 g/L at flameout

Ferment 25 deg

OG 1.043
FG 1.003

Nice recipe, I keep making it again and again. Use whatever European hops you have but keep them subtle and let the yeast make the beer.

I think a FG of 1.003 would help with the dry finish I'm after.

 

[Hpal]

Yeah, first time I did the recipe I mashed at 65 so I didn't dry it out too much and still got 1.003 with that yeast, it's dry and keeps you coming back for the next sip.

 

[seamad]

Wyeast 3711 gets down pretty low, never had it finish above 1.005

 

[manticle]

Thanks!
Thoughts on simple sugar? I got the idea from the brewing with style podcast on saison. Jamil recommends about 10% simple sugar to get the dryness

Add it if you want but to my mind there is no need. Mash 65 or below with 3711 and you'll struggle to get it finish above 1006.

 

[Blind Dog]

Agree with the KISS approach to a Saison. 80% Pilsner malt, 20% wheat generally and sometimes a few % of Acidulated if I have it. Mash low and long for dryness seems to work better for me than adding sugar. Really like Belle Saison yeast, although I prefer it below 20.

Brewed 2 recently. 1 with a touch of Amarillo and 100g of Huell Melon in the cube, the other a sour mash with Nelson Sauvin, both belle saison at 19. Drinking really well.

 

[indica86]

Which also then makes the beer a Biere De Garde, not a Saison

Does it? Read the manufacturer's suggestion for beer styles appropriate for the yeast smart arse.

 

[shacked]

Add it if you want but to my mind there is no need. Mash 65 or below with 3711 and you'll struggle to get it finish above 1006.

How about a step mash?

 

[manticle]

I step mash mine - 55 for 5, 62 for 15, 68 for 40, 72 for 10, 78 for 10.

Still hit sub 1006, no need for sugar.

Depends what you are after. I'd recommend the simplest of the simple and build/add from there for desired result.
Pils, wheat, single step dry mash, noble hop, saison yeast, ambient ferment. Easiest beer in the world.

 

[shacked]

I step mash mine - 55 for 5, 62 for 15, 68 for 40, 72 for 10, 78 for 10.

Still hit sub 1006, no need for sugar.

Depends what you are after. I'd recommend the simplest of the simple and build/add from there for desired result.
Pils, wheat, single step dry mash, noble hop, saison yeast, ambient ferment. Easiest beer in the world.

Sounds good. I'll donate this keg to my bucks party and give it another crack with a simple grist

 

[Batz]

Now you have made me go and have a Saison, this one with 3031-PC Saison-Brett