How long would you give a lager yeast to kick off?

[Dave70]

I don't brew many lagers, they take a long time to do right, any wrong flavours stand out, and really, I'm more of an ale man. However I do like to brew them now and again. They are a challenge to get right ( not that I've got my ales perfect or anything ). Apart from ferm temp, I've found when it comes to yeast, pitch lots, and pitch it cold. This has made the biggest difference for me, and I'm quite happy with my lagers now.

You can always use wyeast 1007 at 12-15c for a very nice pseudo lager.

Pseudo? never!..Hated the implications of that word ever since Pseudo Echo.

But I could count on one hand how many lagers I've brewed - as if it wasn't obvious. Yeah, they can be tricky and long winded, but I'd hate to bypass bock, pilsner or dunkel awesomeness because of it.
Certainly be wiser next time for this thread.

 

[philistine]

This is exactly the thread I need right now! Cheers guys.
I've just finished the boil etc. and cubed 20-21 litres of what I reckon is gonna be a ******* bullshit pilsner.
Anyway, Im using white labs wlp800 and Im gonna grow my starter to 3L over the next day or 3 (or however long it takes) but Im wondering, when should I pitch it?

Should I wait till it finishes fermenting and the yeast drops out? If I do this, im guessing the idea would be to cold crash once complete, decant a bit of the starter wort out and pitch the slurry?
OR
should I pitch it wort and all while its in full swing with krausen?

Dave70 - I gather you went with option A?

 

[Mzungu]

I pitch my dry lager yeasts at 15 degrees and set to 12 when the door shuts, never had a problem. Go to sleep and have action the next day.

 

[mje1980]

This is exactly the thread I need right now! Cheers guys.
I've just finished the boil etc. and cubed 20-21 litres of what I reckon is gonna be a ******* bullshit pilsner.
Anyway, Im using white labs wlp800 and Im gonna grow my starter to 3L over the next day or 3 (or however long it takes) but Im wondering, when should I pitch it?

Should I wait till it finishes fermenting and the yeast drops out? If I do this, im guessing the idea would be to cold crash once complete, decant a bit of the starter wort out and pitch the slurry?
OR
should I pitch it wort and all while its in full swing with krausen?

Dave70 - I gather you went with option A?

How strong is your pils? If 1.050 or more I'd go 4-5 litre starter, then when done, add to ferm fridge with your cube. Leave it over night to cool to just below ferm temp ( I aim for around 7c ). Pour off some of the starter wort ( I leave a bit, just not too much but it's up to you ) and pitch and put back in the ferm fridge, and adjust temp slightly up to ferm temp ( 10c for me ). Wait

 

[manticle]

This is exactly the thread I need right now! Cheers guys.
I've just finished the boil etc. and cubed 20-21 litres of what I reckon is gonna be a ******* bullshit pilsner.
Anyway, Im using white labs wlp800 and Im gonna grow my starter to 3L over the next day or 3 (or however long it takes) but Im wondering, when should I pitch it?

Should I wait till it finishes fermenting and the yeast drops out? If I do this, im guessing the idea would be to cold crash once complete, decant a bit of the starter wort out and pitch the slurry?
OR
should I pitch it wort and all while its in full swing with krausen?

Dave70 - I gather you went with option A?

I pitch when active. Sources such as Mr Malty suggest likewise but people use either method.

 

[TheWiggman]

How's the lager going Dave? Krausen plus by now?

 

[Black n Tan]

This is exactly the thread I need right now! Cheers guys.
I've just finished the boil etc. and cubed 20-21 litres of what I reckon is gonna be a ******* bullshit pilsner.
Anyway, Im using white labs wlp800 and Im gonna grow my starter to 3L over the next day or 3 (or however long it takes) but Im wondering, when should I pitch it?

Should I wait till it finishes fermenting and the yeast drops out? If I do this, im guessing the idea would be to cold crash once complete, decant a bit of the starter wort out and pitch the slurry?
OR
should I pitch it wort and all while its in full swing with krausen?

Dave70 - I gather you went with option A?

I favour fermenting out the starter and just pitching the yeast. The reason there is nowhere to hide off-flavours in a lager. A starter typically represents a significant portion of the wort (10-20% or even more) and doesn't taste great due to significant oxidation from stirring/shaking. White and Zainasheff in the Yeast book recommend just pitching the yeast if the starter is more than 5% of the beer volume.

 

[slcmorro]

I've brewed a number of what I think, are successful lagers.

My standard go-to is W34/70, just because it's easy and it's cheap. Either pitch 2 packs in a 1050-1060 OG wort, or make a starter from 1 pack over 2 days (I collect the first runnings of any beer I brew to use as starters, and store them in my kegerator in a sanitised mason jar) just by keeping it at or around 12c. Dump the whole lot into the wort in your FV when it's around 14c and jobs done.

I usually ferment my lagers for up to 4 weeks around 11c, and I also rack to secondary and cold condition my lagers at 0.5c for 2 weeks prior to kegging. Some people use gelatine to clear it even more, but I find cold conditioning does a good enough job for me.

I'll be brewing primarily lagers this winter, after I finish off the 2 variants of DrSmurtos Golden I'm doing today.

 

[The Lords of Diacetyl]

No.
No I didn't...

Wort was at 10, but the starter would have been more like 17 or there about.

Oops..

this may be a dumb question, but what was the starter doing at 17oC?
My lager yeast is always kept at around brew temp - 11.5oC.

 

[Black n Tan]

this may be a dumb question, but what was the starter doing at 17oC?
My lager yeast is always kept at around brew temp - 11.5oC.

Most people ferment their starter at room temperature. There is no need to incubate your starter at lager fermentation temp because yeast replicate better at warmer temps and a starter is all about making more yeast.

 

[manticle]

As well as growing yeast numbers, you are also growing healthy yeast for specific conditions.

I ferment mine cool, ferment temps, same wort, no agitation after krausen appears into good size stater wort and have always found a good, healthy ferment beginning in the main batch very quickly.

 

[Black n Tan]

As well as growing yeast numbers, you are also growing healthy yeast for specific conditions.

I ferment mine cool, ferment temps, same wort, no agitation after krausen appears into good size stater wort and have always found a good, healthy ferment beginning in the main batch very quickly.

Incubating a lager yeast starter at room temperature does not make the yeast are any less ready for fermenting at lower temps. White and Zainasheff actually recommend against incubating a lager yeast starter cold but instead recommend incubating at 18-24C. That said I appreciate if you are pitching the whole starter incubating the yeast starter at lower temps will help avoid shocking the yeast when you pitch into cool wort.

 

[manticle]

If you look at mr malty it says similar but that lager yeasts can be done cooler and if pitching active should be closer to wort temp. Next section discusses pros and cons of active versus decant - this and my own experience lead me to conclude that there are compromises whichever way you try rather than a hard, fast set of rules.

On phone but check mr malty 14 essential questions about starters.

 

[Black n Tan]

If you look at mr malty it says similar but that lager yeasts can be done cooler and if pitching active should be closer to wort temp. Next section discusses pros and cons of active versus decant - this and my own experience lead me to conclude that there are compromises whichever way you try rather than a hard, fast set of rules.

On phone but check mr malty 14 essential questions about starters.

MrMalty and Yeast book both say you can incubate you lager starter at colder temps but both seem to say it is unnecessary, except if pitching an active into a cooler wort (as I qualified earlier). I used to pitch an active starter some time ago but feel my beer (especially my lagers) has improved since I moved to just pitching the yeast (although there were some other incremental improvements that would have happened at the same time, so I cannot say with certainty that this is the reason), but certainly agree which ever way you go there are compromises.

 

[dmac80]

Another method i use to ensure a nice pitching rate is to cube my lager in 2 x 10 Litre cubes, pitch yeast from a 4L starter into fermenter with 1 cube, add the other 10 litres after about 24 hrs (or yeast action is evident). Learnt this method from a local craft brewery.

Note. The cubes and starter are usually in the fridge together at ferment temp for a day or so before pitching.

 

[mrsupraboy]

Sorry to jump in but with my lager yeast if I was to make a starter into all grain brew what would I use to make the starter for a 23l batch.

 

[slcmorro]

Collect the runnings from another AG brew, or use boiled DME.

 

[mje1980]

I go 100g of DME per litre.

 

[mrsupraboy]

Can someone post me a good yeast starter guide. Something that tells me amounts to pitch. Howto step up a starter etc

 

[slcmorro]

Plenty of info on this very forum. Use the search bar up the top right on the home page.

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/54900-basics-of-making-and-using-a-yeast-starter/