Home Brew Taste

[Kevman]

I have never done a kit I've been happy with. Done plenty of extracts I've been happy with. I reckon it's isohops.

If it was the isohops then you would taste that same taste in commercial brews that use hop extract in the manufacturing process. I haven't met anyone that drinks a commercial beer and says it has that home brew taste.

I picked up a couple of stubbies the other day of a European beer (Redgenberger or something like that) and looked on the back at the ingredients. Didn't mention hops but did state hop extract. Didn't taste like poor quality homebrew either.

It could be that the homebrew taste is that it tastes different to commercial beers. I know my wife used to make lasangne using shop bought pasta sheets. Now she makes her own pasta sheets for the lasangne. It definitely tastes noticably better. The first time she did it, she didn't tell me. I knew something was different but couldn't put my finger on it. I think to a certain extent thats what this homebrew taste thing is. Everytime the question comes up, the person doesn't know how describe it other than its different than commercial beers. And isn't being different to commercial beers a good thing?

 

[Hatchy]

I'd say that kit yeast is the biggest cause of the "home brew taste".

 

[argon]

I know exactly what you mean by "homebrew taste" i've only ever experienced it with kit beers or 100% extract beers. Even tasted it in another kit brewers beers.

To me it has a harsh kind of biscuity profile, maybe some burnt quality to it. For what i get, and define as that "homebrew taste", I'd say it's more linked to the extract process rather than the isohop.

Haven't tasted it in any commercial beers and not in any small proportion (of extract) partials or all grains.

 

[jkirky]

Im no expert by any means, however my impression of the kit twang is a slight "harshness", kind of as an overtone... The flavours are all there but its like there is just something not quite right with it. Hard to describe but its almost a hint of metallic...

I have found all kits have them to varying degrees... extra hops can disguise them more.

Once I moved to unhopped extract, the flavour completely dissapeared...

Hence, my guess (like others) is the isohops...

Brewing good beer is quite simple I reckon;

1) Fresh ingredients
2) Keep ferment temps DOWN, abour 16-18degrees
3) Avoid excessive sugar (use more malt as a fementable rather than dex. - dex is good but too much = bad)
4) Keep brew in fermenter for a week extra after ferment is finished to let the yeast clean up.

This recipe works with kits, extract, partials and AG in my experience.

Obviously recipes have a huge impact but if you dont get the basics right the brew will inevitably suffer IMO...

I still brew kits occationally as they are cheap, easy, quick and produce pretty good beer... In fact, sometimes really good beer... YES you cant get the twang but dont be too hard on yourself, just put it all in perspective...

If you cant handle the twang, move to unhopped extract and you wont look back!

 

[Kieren]

Just go AG

 

[MarkBastard]

If it was the isohops then you would taste that same taste in commercial brews that use hop extract in the manufacturing process. I haven't met anyone that drinks a commercial beer and says it has that home brew taste.

Just because two things use isohops doesn't mean they have to be the same. The commercial brew guys may have a different process to create isohops etc.

To me it's just the only thing I can think of. LME brews with the same yeast are fine to me but kits not really.

 

[brett mccluskey]

I dont know exactly.
It doesnt taste bad or cidery. nothing to do with infection etc.
but rather a taste that sets it apart from shop bought beers.
While the brew I made as decribed above is by far much more superior than any from
in my younger days and is very drinkable. it is unmistakenly homebrew.

I think I`ll give some of the above recipes a go next, and after a while I`ll put my finished brews
in the fridge to cold condition. it all sounds good to me. I ordered the how to brew book on amazon
luckily my brew is drinkable and will keep me company while I read the book.

If you're not already using it, then i'd highly recommend you try liquid yeast.I think you'll find a big difference in the taste :icon_cheers:

 

[Hatchy]

Just go AG

That's Kieren volunteering to bring his gear round for you to brew a couple of batches. He's a subtle bloke but if you read between the lines that's what he's suggesting.

 

[kbe]

Just go AG

Just don't drink any thing other than K&K. After a while you will not notice it.

But in all honesty, get a fridge and a fridge mate temperature controller and it will make them heaps better.

 

[MHB]

I've always said "home brew kits contain Iso-hop" well I was wrong, at least as far as Coopers and Morgan's kits are concerned. They are made from vacuum evaporated kettle bittered wort.
If they have any late hop character, e.g. Blue Mountains Lager, Golden Saaz Pilsner and most notably Coopers IPA that will be added post concentration in the form of a hop oil or extract. Any hop aroma is going to be lost during the vacuum evaporation - otherwise it really is concentrated wort.

The factors that I believe contribute most to the "Home Brew Taste" are:-
Staling never use a kit or extract that is out of date.
Yeast many of us in our early brewing just used the packet with the kit, there is a very good argument that 5-7g just isn't enough, especially when many worts are badly managed (following)
Temperature most K&K brewers don't have good temperature control, if you can brew your Ale at 18 and Lagers at 12 ^oC+/- a couple of degrees and very importantly keep the temperature consistent you will get much better beer.
Process bit of a catch all, if you leave your beer in the fermenter too long you will get off flavours (the hotter the faster), heat plates really accelerate this process as the dead and oldest yeast falls to the bottom first and sits on top of the heater getting stewed. Too long is a bit hard to define, it really depends on a lot of factors working together, a commercial brewer making Lager in a CCV would be clearing trub 3-4 times before the beer is either keged or bottled the home brew equivalent is racking I know it's fallen out of favour of late, but I suspect it's worth having a long hard look at.
Immaturity beer takes time to age, many beers that are very ordinary at 2-3 weeks are great after 6 weeks or more. Wheat beer aside (it has its own rule book) the bigger and blacker a beer, the more benefit gained from aging.
(This bit is a personal opinion)
Chlorine Chlorophenols and Chloramines are a nasty bunch, Extract and AG brewers will get rid of any Chlorine in their water because their process involves boiling, K&K brewers just using tap water can get some very off flavours I suspect the formation of organic chlorides that can be detected at very low (10's of ppb) levels may contribute, some people are acutely sensitive to them.

It's hard to point to any one thing as say "that's it" good ingredients good brewing practice and patience all play a role in making good beer, a well made kit beer can be a hell of a lot better than a badly made AG or extract. In part I suspect most AG brewers started out as kit brewers, enjoyed the beer they were making, got better at making beer (it's a skill set) learned what made better beer and have brought those skills into AG brewing which just provides a bigger pallet of ingredients and processes to play with.

MHB

 

[Thunderlips]

Chlorine Chlorophenols and Chloramines are a nasty bunch, Extract and AG brewers will get rid of any Chlorine in their water because their process involves boiling

Good point.

Problem is, for me at least, I'm still adding tap water as the last two extract recipes I did involved boils of 5 litres and 12 litres.
The rest was tap water.

I don't notice any problem with it but now that you mention it maybe I should start using the water filter I bought a while back.

Would that even get rid of Chlorophenols and Chloramines?

 

[alford_j]

I was discussing this with another brewing mate.

We both started with kits, went to full volume extract with pellet hops, then on to AG.

I had a temp controlled fridge since my kit days and use the same yeasts I used with extracts. I even use the same immersion chiller, kettle and burner etc as with my extract. The AG hopping is also the same as with extract.

We put the difference down to the extract as that is the only specific thing that has changed from extract to AG. Sure, we have both improved our process a bit, but that extract taste stands out to me when compared to a similar AG beer.

The two things we noticed were:

1 with extracts, the malt flavours didn't integrate well together- it tasted like pale extract and crystal malt mixed together. I know that is exactly what it is but it is almost like unmixed salad dressing- you taste both flavours (oil and vinegar) separately rather than a more homogeneous, integrated malt and caramel flavour (like mixed salad dressing).

2 the extract beers formed a head differently, with big loose bubbles and a funny mouth feel on the way down, no lacing on the glass etc.

Not sure on the chemistry etc, but subjectively, that's what we came up with.

Alfie

 

[MHB]

Snip
Would that even get rid of Chlorophenols and Chloramines?

Most tap water in Australia is chlorinated with gaseous Chlorine; I was referring to chemicals that form when Chlorine reacts with phenols and proteins in the brew. Chlorine is incredibly reactive that's why it's used as a steriliser. Apparently Chloramines are used a lot more across the pond than they are here and there is a wealth of info out there for the searching, but it's not a subject that I have investigated closely or know much about.

Just sitting your brewing water in a bucket overnight, heating it (even surprisingly little) bubbling air or CO2 through will get most of the Cl out; most domestic carbon filters will also strip out the Cl, but at a price.

Again this one is a personal opinion based on observation over a couple of decades of brewing - as soon as anything is done that makes a reasonable reduction in the Cl content there is (for me) a marked improvement in the beer.

MHB

 

[rendo]

I can only TOTALLY concur with MHB here and add a few thoughts/views of my own. i have nowhere near as much experience as him. I pretty much a self-proclaimed kit master now. However am now doing partial BIABing, but my kit beers, just quietly, pretty damn good. I honestly havent noticed any massive improvement since going to partial brewing. My kit beers have no homebrew taste, but they USE to. Why?? well as MHB its hard to pin point one thing, and its not just ONE thing...but the things that stand out for me are (not necessarily in order, but sorta):

1. Temperature control. Brewing in a temp controlled fridge makes an amazing difference, for SO many reasons, mainly yeast related...but anyway.
can be cheap and easy if you keep you eye out for a spare fridge...be patient and u'll get one..or at least a cheapo one

2. FILTERING the brewing water before brewing......this has (at least I think) made a HUGE difference to my beers. I am just using a brita water jug to slowly fill up a 20L willow cube from bunnings the night before I brew. Then pop it in the brew fridge the night before and in the morning it is the right temp (or just a few degrees lower if I am going to be doing a hop boil...I always do hop boils now). I put it down to the absence of chlorine in whatever technical form it is in. Just make a cup of tea from tap water, and side by side against a cup of tea from filtered water and that will tell you a story. Then think what difference it will make to your beer. There are better ways to filter than a brita jug, but it is working for me at the moment, one day I will upgrade.
This is cheap and easy for any homebrewer...DO IT...at least once.

3. Using as FRESH kits as possible

4. Using extra malt rather than extra sugar/dex...with any kit (1.7kg generally) I almost always add another 1kg of LDME (light dry malt extract)..sometimes a little less and then I'll add some dry wheat malt powder or steeped carapils (grain I know) to give fantastic head and head rentention and leave behind great lacing! Rarely do I add dex/sugar, at most 200-500g.

5. Use a good quality yeast. Why is this #5...? its important, but without good brewing practices, or some of the things above, I believe that the homebrew taste may still linger even with a quality yeast. I have made brews with kit yeast with no homebrewy taste....but the better quality yeasts are great. I often make a yeast starter, this really isnt hard, and I feel it makes a big difference
better yeast isnt hard to try and the results WILL speak for themselves

6. DONT RUSH YOUR FERMENTING....I rather ferment slower (lower temp) than faster just to get it into the bottle/keg a few days earlier....I rarely will brew under 2 weeks...usually nearly 4 including cold crashing, finings, etc...If you havent tried it, then leave your brew fermenting for at least 3-5 days after it has reached a stable FG and let the yeast clean up stuff and off flavours, giving the brew time to 'mellow' and the yeast to drop out of suspension a bit....
totally recommend this for nearly all occasions and situations...

7. Experiment and KEEP records...this is crucially important. Enjoy your brewing, but take a little bit of time to make a tiny scientific effort in recording what you have done, ingredients, methods, etc, then try to improve on this each and every brew. Dont change too many things at once or you wont know what was the main thing that caused whatever the change was. Best to change only one thing at a time, but that can be hard to resist.

8. Follow point 7 and add new bits to your kits, use hop pellets, get into using some grains, try various yeasts.......there is so much that you can alter and experiment with. The amount of experimental factors just get even bigger as your expand your brewing horizons....

There is so much more...these are just some that I feel that helped me brew the beer that I do today...and all of this is due to the wonderful people who have taught me so much at AHB....Thanks guys. I hope this message helps someone out there

Rendo

Most tap water in Australia is chlorinated with gaseous Chlorine; I was referring to chemicals that form when Chlorine reacts with phenols and proteins in the brew. Chlorine is incredibly reactive that's why it's used as a steriliser. Apparently Chloramines are used a lot more across the pond than they are here and there is a wealth of info out there for the searching, but it's not a subject that I have investigated closely or know much about.

Just sitting your brewing water in a bucket overnight, heating it (even surprisingly little) bubbling air or CO2 through will get most of the Cl out; most domestic carbon filters will also strip out the Cl, but at a price.

Again this one is a personal opinion based on observation over a couple of decades of brewing - as soon as anything is done that makes a reasonable reduction in the Cl content there is (for me) a marked improvement in the beer.

MHB

 

[MarkBastard]

Very interesting regarding the water. That's a very good point. It has to be something like that I reckon.

 

[bignath]

Rendo/MHB

i reckon in a time when there is a lot of mudslinging going on at times, both of your recent posts in this thread are some of the best i've read. Very refreshing to still see some people willing to go the extra yard to dish out excellent advice.

For beginner brewers, read these guys last posts on this thread. All the best tips in one place.

cheers boys!

nath

 

[birusuki]

Rendo/MHB

i reckon in a time when there is a lot of mudslinging going on at times, both of your recent posts in this thread are some of the best i've read. Very refreshing to still see some people willing to go the extra yard to dish out excellent advice.

For beginner brewers, read these guys last posts on this thread. All the best tips in one place.

cheers boys!

nath

I couldnt agree more. I think this thread has turned in a gold mine for me anyway.
Will try spring water next, I`ll be more patient, before I crack one open biting my nails looking at the calendar.
RENDO/ MHB big cheers and to everyone else.

Alfie said "
the extract beers formed a head differently, with big loose bubbles and a funny mouth feel on the way down, no lacing on the glass etc."

this was to be my next question, I get a good head when I pour, but it dissapears fairly quickly and I find my
self looking into the class for bubbles to check its carbonated to a good level, it is.
Next brew will be markedly different from my last, And I think I`ll try some carapils for the head.

one problem due to my location and language skills over here, I order everything over the
net, so I cant be sure of the freshness. But when I opened my last pack of hopps the smell
was suddenly overwhelming so I guess it must be ok.

 

[Nick JD]

When I do extract brews they don't have that taste - and I use 95% unboiled tap water.

 

[Thunderlips]

this was to be my next question, I get a good head when I pour, but it dissapears fairly quickly and I find my
self looking into the class for bubbles to check its carbonated to a good level, it is.

I can take a pair of glasses from the same batch that have been washed the same way and they will both get different results from the same beer.
One will look lifeless and flat with no head.
The other will have bubbles galore with a magnificent head.

The only thing I can come up with is that the glass with more bubbles and better head has more imperfections on the bottom of the glass.
I now have my beer glasses sorted and the average ones have been relegated to the likes of coke etc.

For cleaning your glasses, some people swear by water and vinegar.
I use water and BrewClean these days.

 

[felten]

There is going to be an extract show coming up on brewstrong IIRC, Jamil has been extolling the use of extract lately. It should be a good show for any extract brewers.