good4whatAlesU said:
Civil liberties are VERY important. They form the basis of our free society and constitution. But people can waive free rights if they want to, so long as they don't break the law.
For example, it is a free right in Australia to have your children vaccinated. But some people choose to waive that right in the name of belief. I don't agree with it, but under our law it's up to them.
I'm going to have to wade in here, because someone is taking the civil liberties with the use of the term (sorry, just had to add that pun). But seriously, civil liberty and personal choice are being confused a lot here. Just because one believes something, does not make it true.....
Firstly, the meaning of civil liberty is;
The state of being subject only to laws established for the good of the community, especially with regard to freedom of action and speech. (Oxford Dictionary). Note it states especially, not only.
You cannot waive your civil liberties in Australia, as a civil liberty cannot be waived. It can be taken away, if it existed in the first place, but not waived. Or in other words, you cannot waive your rights to be subject only to laws established for the good of the community. The constant assertion that has been made on this thread that someone, by wearing or not wearing an item of clothing, so as to show their face, would be waiving their civil liberties is rubbish. FULL STOP.
Now there is a difference between civil liberties and rights. The below is from an American take on it, so note the references to Bill of Rights and Constitution, this is where Australia and the States differ in soooo many ways, but I'll let you absorb it first;
It is important to note the difference between "civil rights" and "civil liberties." The legal area known as "civil rights" has traditionally revolved around the basic right to be free from unequal treatment based on certain protected characteristics (race, gender, disability, etc.) in settings such as employment and housing. "Civil liberties" concern basic rights and freedoms that are guaranteed -- either explicitly identified in the Bill of Rights and the Constitution, or interpreted through the years by courts and lawmakers. Civil liberties include:
- Freedom of speech
- The right to privacy
- The right to be free from unreasonable searches of your home
- The right to a fair court trial
- The right to marry
- The right to vote
Australia is NOT a free society and we have little in the way of rights. We have compulsory voting, not a right to vote. We do not have a right to marry (just ask our LGBTQI brothers, sisters and unassigned), we do not have freedom of speech, in fact there are a multitude of laws that prohibit and punish what can be said by whom and where it is acceptable (ie you can drop the F-bomb in a pub and the constabulary won't touch you, but if you went to a church and started F'ing and blinding, you would be liable for arrest for offensive language (same words, different place). If you stood up in a public square, where a Jewish gathering was taking place and started spouting off anti-holocaust rubbish, you would be arrested for causing a public disturbance (and likely have your life saved at the same time). Not freedom of speech that many seem to understand. We do have versions of the other three, although not enshrined as rights, but mostly in common law (A British Commonwealth throw back that still holds in many countries including majority Muslim Pakistan).
We ARE a very tolerant society though (relatively and generally), which expects its citizens to abide by the laws of this land, but quite often have no actual idea of most of the laws. This is quite different from a free society. This free society thing that is bandied about is a bit of an illusion that many have. Maybe because of media and the relaxed attitudes of much of our law enforcement brethren. It seems that much is ignored, because of our general relaxed nature and this is mostly a good thing.
We have no freedom of speech rights, or freedom of association rights or freedom to dress in a particular way rights that are enshrined anywhere. We are governed by the constitutions, statutes, common law and case law (court precedents) of the States and Federation. Very few of these have references to rights. Freedom of religion is one that is reference. Others include that people who are arrested have rights that are enshrined in statute law, for example the right not to answer questions, put to them by the police, or the right not to be compelled to give evidence in a court in which they are charged, but the rest of us can rely on sweet FA in so far as rights to freedoms go. Some of the UN ones, but really they are international rights and well that is a complicated and boring topic that will likely end with the truth, that the UN can't enforce much anyway.
If the laws of this land and its States were enforced to the letter of the law, then many people would be shocked as to the harsh variety of what actually constitutes an offence. For example, there are laws in Australia that enable certain government agencies to hold secret hearings, in which any citizen could be forced, under punishment of imprisonment for non-compliance, to attend and truthfully answer all questions put to them. That citizen would not be allowed to tell anyone that they were going, or had been or what they were asked or spoke about. Now they have the personal choice to refuse, but then they go to Gaol. That's a choice and not a right. These sort of hearings happen on a regular basis all around Australia for the good of the community (sound familiar; also in the definition of civil liberties). Now tell me this is the free society you all seem to imagine we live in.
So I'll end here by saying that one does not have a "free right to have your children vaccinated in Australia". It's a choice, not a right and one cannot waive a right that does not exist.
