Herms - Excessively Looong Ramp Time

[newguy]

Sorry mate I didn't mean it to come across like I was dissing your theory or anything, just was hoping for someone to explain why what I said isn't right. IE if you have 99% of you're wort at 62C for the whole mash, while little bits of it are repeatedly heated to 67C then cooled to 62 again, why do you get the malt profile of a 67C mash?

My HERMS controller, which I built from scratch, actually uses the mash temperature - I don't even measure the temp of the HE outflow. Sammus, I also had a philosophical issue with outflow temp vs what I felt to be the proper measure at the time: the mash temp. I do, however, measure the temperature of the water inside my heat exchanger, and during a ramp it never gets more than about 2.5C hotter than the mash itself. Once the mash comes up to whatever my set temp is, the HE temp will settle at that same value. Thus the only difference between the two approaches (outflow temp vs mash temp) would be a time lag between when your outflow hits your target vs when the mash does. Thus the two approaches are equivalent - only the time lag separates them. Clearer?

 

[chappo1970]

UPDATE:

On the boil and first Hop addition done.

Target pre-boil Gravity 1.027 - got 1.028 - SCHAWEEEET :super: How f*cken easy was that hey? NOW I need a bigger HLT as I don't have the excess time for it to reach temp for sparging.

Cheers for all the help and detailed instructions Screwy and to everyone else for their input in getting it sorted.


Sully :icon_cheers:

See tis easy!

BTW how come Chappo NEVER gets a thanks??

 

[Sully]

See tis easy!

BTW how come Chappo NEVER gets a thanks??

THANKS CHAPPO!!! :lol:

 

[Sammus]

My HERMS controller, which I built from scratch, actually uses the mash temperature - I don't even measure the temp of the HE outflow. Sammus, I also had a philosophical issue with outflow temp vs what I felt to be the proper measure at the time: the mash temp. I do, however, measure the temperature of the water inside my heat exchanger, and during a ramp it never gets more than about 2.5C hotter than the mash itself. Once the mash comes up to whatever my set temp is, the HE temp will settle at that same value. Thus the only difference between the two approaches (outflow temp vs mash temp) would be a time lag between when your outflow hits your target vs when the mash does. Thus the two approaches are equivalent - only the time lag separates them. Clearer?

No. My problem is that the MT temp NEVER equals the HE temp. The HE outflow could be constant at 67 for 3 hours, and the grainbed in the MT can be sitting at 62C for that same hour. Screwy's argument is that since the liquid gets to 67C and thats where the starches and enzymes are, that's all that matters. My argument is that only a tiny percentage of that liquid is at the right temperature, with the vast majority being several degrees below your desired sacc rest temp.

 

[newguy]

No. My problem is that the MT temp NEVER equals the HE temp. The HE outflow could be constant at 67 for 3 hours, and the grainbed in the MT can be sitting at 62C for that same hour. Screwy's argument is that since the liquid gets to 67C and thats where the starches and enzymes are, that's all that matters. My argument is that only a tiny percentage of that liquid is at the right temperature, with the vast majority being several degrees below your desired sacc rest temp.

I see. My question though is that has anyone seen a system where the outflow temp is higher than the mash temp for many minutes? If the tun is properly insulated the mash temp simply must eventually come up to the outflow temp.

The issue with the liquid at one temp, mash at another, and liquid contains enzymes argument is that the liquid in the mash tun is at a lower temp, and since it has a much larger volume of liquid than the HE piping does, the mash temp will predominate the final characteristics of the beer. I agree with you there.

 

[NickB]

Is it not true that the enzymes are predominently in the liquid part of the mash? If so, the liquid above your grain bed in the MT will be close to the exit temp of the HE pretty quickly. I know that my mash thermo (in the grain bed) reads within a degree of the set temp at the HE output, however, consider that your manifold setup may be introducing channeling to your mash, and that the true temp of the mash would not be what the thermometer in the mash is reading. Either way, with a decent flow through the HERMS (ie: 1L a minute or so), it would most likely only take 15-20 mins at most to get mash equilibrium.

Realistically, the only way to get a true indication of the differences in mash temp of the grain and the HE output, would to be constantly stir the mash....and I don't have enough hours in the week to be contemplating that one.... any volunteers?

Cheers

PS: Don't know why it works, but what Screwy is saying seems to be right: consistent repeatable results. YMMV.

 

[Sully]

DONE AND DUSTED!!

Didn't quite get my target post boil OG mainly because I stuffed around with the boil volume/evap rate in Beersmith and ended up with a couple extra ltrs. I will chuck a 1/2kg DME to up it a bit.

I see my issue has opened a debate. It would be interesting to see what temp is coming OUT of the MT before it hits the HE. You would need to set up three points and see what each is reading.

I will watch intently but from what Screwy has posted worked for me and I am sticking with it.

Cheers

Sully

 

[technocat]

Sully when things look tough the graphic tells it all,


View attachment 31617


:icon_cheers:

 

[Screwtop]

Sorry mate I didn't mean it to come across like I was dissing your theory or anything, just was hoping for someone to explain why what I said isn't right. IE if you have 99% of you're wort at 62C for the whole mash, while little bits of it are repeatedly heated to 67C then cooled to 62 again, why do you get the malt profile of a 67C mash?

No probs mate, you're onto it:

IE if you have 99% of you're wort at 62C for the whole mash, while little bits of it are repeatedly heated to 67C then cooled to 62 again, why do you get the malt profile of a 67C mash?

You won't get the profile of a 67 mash, it will be something lower, and you can adjust the temp of "YOUR SYSTEM" for the profile of the beer you want/prefer then you can repeat this consistently. What doesn't happen is that you dont have to add water way above your mash temp to achieve a mash temp of 66C resulting in a profile of a 70C mash even though your trusty in-grainbed thermometer shows 66. You would probably already have found that though the wall type thermometers suffer from heat sinking to the metal surrounding the probe, as the sensor is located inside a SS thermowell that is part of the thermometer body and turned down probe end. If you have taken temp measurements around your mash using a probe on a flexible lead you will also have noticed that the temperature is usually hotter by a few degrees just near the surface and temps vary around the grainbed. There is nothing new in using a HERMS Heat Exchanger it's just a different way of mashing with temps varying around the system but it ensures your wort never rises above the required mash temp. Extraction seems to be better probably due to the number of times the wort passes through the grainbed.

Cheers,

Screwy

 

[Screwtop]

DONE AND DUSTED!!

Didn't quite get my target post boil OG mainly because I stuffed around with the boil volume/evap rate in Beersmith and ended up with a couple extra ltrs. I will chuck a 1/2kg DME to up it a bit.

I see my issue has opened a debate. It would be interesting to see what temp is coming OUT of the MT before it hits the HE. You would need to set up three points and see what each is reading.

I will watch intently but from what Screwy has posted worked for me and I am sticking with it.

Cheers

Sully

Happy for you mate, it really is a piece a piss eh, Tony could add to this as he has already done the measuring at three places thing years ago.

Now is this fcuking thing finished.........................................No more from me, cross me heart and hope to..................opps better not try that again :lol:

Screwy

 

[chappo1970]

Now is this fcuking thing finished.........................................No more from me, cross me heart and hope to..................opps better not try that again :lol:

Screwy

Passion NEVER DIES :beerbang:

 

[Sammus]

rockn roll...your making me consider re-building my herms lol. :icon_cheers:

 

[technocat]

G'day Screwy,

Am I right in thinking what you are saying is that the wort after passing through the HE (exit monitoring) given transfer losses and ending up in the MT, passing through the grain bed is the strike temperature what is desired given that monitoring the grain bed temp is a necessary step in achieving the temperature required. Sorry mate I am a little confused on some of the issues raised here which is of interest as I am in progress building a HERMS unit for my rig to give me better temperature stability in my MT. If this sounds a little disjointed it is probably because I have been most pleased that Melbourne kicked Parramatta's arse and have had a couple of nice jugs of English Southern browns.

cheers,

:chug:

 

[Back Yard Brewer]

No probs mate, you're onto it:



You won't get the profile of a 67 mash, it will be something lower, and you can adjust the temp of "YOUR SYSTEM" for the profile of the beer you want/prefer then you can repeat this consistently. What doesn't happen is that you dont have to add water way above your mash temp to achieve a mash temp of 66C resulting in a profile of a 70C mash even though your trusty in-grainbed thermometer shows 66. You would probably already have found that though the wall type thermometers suffer from heat sinking to the metal surrounding the probe, as the sensor is located inside a SS thermowell that is part of the thermometer body and turned down probe end. If you have taken temp measurements around your mash using a probe on a flexible lead you will also have noticed that the temperature is usually hotter by a few degrees just near the surface and temps vary around the grainbed. There is nothing new in using a HERMS Heat Exchanger it's just a different way of mashing with temps varying around the system but it ensures your wort never rises above the required mash temp. Extraction seems to be better probably due to the number of times the wort passes through the grainbed.

Cheers,

Screwy

Spot on, I was really pissed a few brews back. I have a temp sensor in a thermo well on the entry point to my mash tun. I decided one day for some reason to actually measure the temp of liquid wort itself FFS I got a surprise, it was actually around 3-4c hotter than thew sensor reading. I have now adjusted my sensor with that tolerance in mind.Works a treat.

BYB

 

[Back Yard Brewer]

Happy for you mate, it really is a piece a piss eh, Tony could add to this as he has already done the measuring at three places thing years ago.

Now is this fcuking thing finished.........................................No more from me, cross me heart and hope to..................opps better not try that again :lol:

Screwy

Look forward to more discussion on this topic at the case swap??? Techy herms info that is

BYB