Herms - Excessively Looong Ramp Time

[chappo1970]

You gave up due to a lack of info, the temp of the wort exiting the herms IS your mash temp not the grainbed, lot of brewers make this mistake. The wort has to reach mash temp not the grainbed.

Cheers,

Screwy

+1 Screwy!

I had my doubts, I'll be honest, but was guided by ya mike and never had an issue over the 6 batches so far since the upgrade. In fact last brew day on lookers were suprised how with only using tempmates that there were no over ramping issues at all. Placement of the thermowell is the linch pin of a HERMS system! BTW thanks Screwy! :icon_cheers:

Chappo

 

[Screwtop]

At the Mash Tun with a Mashmaster (a different one from last brew also) and a thermometer.

The probe for the HE control is in a thermowell at the exit of the HE which is reading at the stepped temp ie. the HE probe reads 64deg, the Mashmaster reads 55deg and the thermometer reads 55deg when inserted in the grist (when I checked it).

Which brings me to a new theory, I wonder if the TempMate is reading correct?? The only way I could raise to the last few degrees was to set the HE to 70deg...

I will check it.

You don't use the mash/grainbed temp only the temp of the wort exiting the HE, the whole exercise of using a herms is so that the WORT never gets above your desired mash temp, recirculating the mash over one hour see's it continuously rising to your mash temp, with no enzymic action occuring at a temp greater than your desired mash temp. Who cares about the temp of the grist, the point is to hydrolise the starches and get them into suspension in the wort (thats how come it looks brown and starchy) and then get the wort to whatever convrsion temp you require. When infusion mashing the wort spends some time above your mash temp before reaching equilibrium and some conversion will occurs at these temps even though this only lasts 5 or 10 min. With HERMS this never happens, you can control the hottest temp your wort will ever reach.

Cheers,

Screwy

 

[Sully]

You don't use the mash/grainbed temp only the temp of the wort exiting the HE, the whole exercise of using a herms is so that the WORT never gets above your desired mash temp, recirculating the mash over one hour see's it continuously rising to your mash temp, with no enzymic action occuring at a temp greater than your desired mash temp. Who cares about the temp of the grist, the point is to hydrolise the starches and get them into suspension in the wort (thats how come it looks brown and starchy) and then get the wort to whatever convrsion temp you require. When infusion mashing the wort spends some time above your mash temp before reaching equilibrium and some conversion will occurs at these temps even though this only lasts 5 or 10 min. With HERMS this never happens, you can control the hottest temp your wort will ever reach.

Cheers,

Screwy

Screwy I sent you a PM which you have answered here anyways but will repeat it here.


Basically f*ck what the MT/grist temp is, go off the wort temp at the HE. The only clarification needed is do you keep recirculating throughout the mash step?

As I mentioned, completely different to the original way I have been shown and told, and now what you say makes a hell of a lot more sense AND will cause me less grief.

Now I am a bit red-faced... <_<

Cheers :icon_cheers:


Sully

 

[jimmyjack]

Sully

I think you are correct about your assumptions with your dial therm not being correct. I try and have my HE return very close to the end of my dial so I can get accurate readings to double check.

Keep brewing mate

Cheers,

JJ

 

[hockadays]

Hi Sully,
Is your mash tun insulated on the top and sides? that maybe the reason your not get the bed to rise in temp.

 

[Screwtop]

Screwy I sent you a PM which you have answered here anyways but will repeat it here.


Basically f*ck what the MT/grist temp is, go off the wort temp at the HE. The only clarification needed is do you keep recirculating throughout the mash step?

As I mentioned, completely different to the original way I have been shown and told, and now what you say makes a hell of a lot more sense AND will cause me less grief.

Now I am a bit red-faced... <_<

Cheers :icon_cheers:


Sully

I have responded and replied to like posts at least a dozen times explaining my method and the reasoning and results. There would be s shitload of info re HERMS process. Still, remember there is no one right way.

Yes I recirc the whole time, pseudo protien rest through to mash out and only stir at mash in. Follow whatever way you like or have been shown so long as it works for you.

Cheers,

Screwy

 

[Lilo]

+1 Screwy!

I had my doubts, I'll be honest, but was guided by ya mike and never had an issue over the 6 batches so far since the upgrade. In fact last brew day on lookers were suprised how with only using tempmates that there were no over ramping issues at all. Placement of the thermowell is the linch pin of a HERMS system! BTW thanks Screwy! :icon_cheers:

Chappo

+2 Screwy... I have been tearing my hair ( what their is of it) out over the lack of heat in the Grist....I am about to pull the Temp gauge out of the Mash tun cos the differential pisses me to tears..... If I can't see it I can't quetion it.

Lilo

 

[seravitae]

+1.

Consider the thermodynamics of what's going on. If your mash is at protein rest (lets say 40C?) and you wish to ramp up to about 60C, the heat flux through the copper coil is going to be fairly slow because the rate of heat transfer is affected by the difference between the two temperatures. If you wanted to get from 40C to 60C *really* fast, in theory you could pump a crapload of heat into the HERMS such that the HERMS water was, say, boiling, or even greater than 100C. This would cause your overall mash temp to increase greatly and much more quickly, but the issue with HERMS heating is that you are only heating a small portion of the wort - such to raise the bed quickly, your wort exiting the heat exchanger would likely be well over the temps required to destroy the enzymes.

Assuming you have got your desired flow rate, the only two ways to equilibrate the temperatures quicker is a) to raise the temp of the HERMS vessel, which is bad for the aformentioned reasons, or B) increase the surface area of the heat flux, ie make a bigger HERMS coil.



As previously mentioned however, the temperature of your overall wort is not as important as the temperature of your mash tun. The reason for this is: you are more interested in the temperature of the liquid rather than the solid. The reason is that, you should be extracting your enzymes (water soluble) into the wort which is where it does its work, not inside the grain (mostly). As the wort circulates and consumes starches to make sugar, more starches will be brought into solution by the wort and recirculated.

The best way to consider a HERMS temperature is to forget the grain even exists, and consider how fast it takes to heat up the liquid only, ie at the HERMS output point. If this gets up to temp in a satisfactory time, then you've achieved what you wanted to.

 

[Sully]

Well now that Chappo is outta my hair I can actually reply sensibly...

I can see the errs of my ways and now can see happier days.

Thanks to Screwy for the PM, and everyone else's help and suggestions. I will be back on track tomorrow and hopefully pump out a couple of doubles.

Cheers all


Sully

 

[browndog]

The best way to consider a HERMS temperature is to forget the grain even exists, and consider how fast it takes to heat up the liquid only, ie at the HERMS output point. If this gets up to temp in a satisfactory time, then you've achieved what you wanted to.

Very good so long as there is no channeling and the wort is actually draining though the mash.

 

[Screwtop]

Very good so long as there is no channeling and the wort is actually draining though the mash.

Good point made by BD, that is why I stir once at mash in for a very short period and then throttle the pump out back to 1/4 to reduce suction and prevent packing down the grainbed, almost a floating mash situation (no that will draw a whole new lot of crabs). You want a good open mash, only stir again after the Sacc rest just before ramping to mash out, and AGAIN slowly and gently, I just rotate the head of the mash paddle to loosen up the griainbed. The first stir/mix at Mash In would last no more than 8 seconds (yes I've timed it, I know I'm a geek) and the second before mash out would be about the same.

I can see the errs of my ways and now can see happier days.

Thanks to Screwy for the PM, and everyone else's help and suggestions. I will be back on track tomorrow and hopefully pump out a couple of doubles.

Cheers all

And bloody good doubles they will be, with highly attenuative wort. You will discover how boring HERMS brewing can be. It's so easy it's a case of hurry up and wait, your day is spent responding to timers and on AHB. HERMS brewing takes longer than normal infusion and batch sparge but most of your time is spent waiting, it's a very relaxed day and is predictable and repeatable. Just how I like it.

Cheers,

Screwy

 

[chappo1970]

And yet no one listens to silly olde Chap Chap?

 

[clean brewer]

And yet no one listens to silly olde Chap Chap?

Tell CB your worries mate... :lol: Ill listen.. :unsure:

 

[chappo1970]

Thanks CB it all started when I met Sully....

 

[Effect]

Thanks CB it all started when I met Sully....

:lol:

 

[Back Yard Brewer]

You gave up due to a lack of info, the temp of the wort exiting the herms IS your mash temp not the grainbed, lot of brewers make this mistake. The wort has to reach mash temp not the grainbed.

Cheers,

Screwy

MMM so if what you are saying is on the money that would mean the wort exiting the MT or entering the HE should be the same :huh: (given time) So I could / should monitor the wort going in the HE as well. I have been using my herms for......... **** a long time and it always pissed me like it has Sully. I ended up bowing to pressure and thought F**k it if its returning at the right temp I will leave it.


BYB

Edit: F**k, always something new to learn...

 

[clean brewer]

Thanks CB it all started when I met Sully....

:lol: Beer all over the floor..... :lol:

 

[chappo1970]

On a serious note I am keen to organise an all HERMS brewers brew day? I think there could be benefits to all... sharing ideas, methods, setups etc? we seem to be fringe dwellers, no?

 

[lefty2446]

I have been tinkering with the idea of making a herms. So I'd love to come along.

Always thought that when I make an official brew stand...

Adrian

 

[Screwtop]

MMM so if what you are saying is on the money that would mean the wort exiting the MT or entering the HE should be the same :huh: (given time) So I could / should monitor the wort going in the HE as well. I have been using my herms for......... **** a long time and it always pissed me like it has Sully. I ended up bowing to pressure and thought F**k it if its returning at the right temp I will leave it.


BYB

Edit: F**k, always something new to learn...

Surprised Tony hasn't chimed it, he's probably over it, I'm bloody close. He used to monitor wort out of the Mash Tun, wort out of the HE and Wort returning to the Mash Tun.

Exactly Andy, fcuk it, if it's returning at the right (mash) temp then that is all that matters. The most acurate place to control it is as close to the HE out as possible, naturally as you don't want the wort temp to rise above your mash temp, if monitoring at the mash tun return there will be system losses between the HE and the mash return so the wort would naturally be higher at the HE out than than at the mash tun return.

Wort leaving the Mash Tun will always be at a higher temp than entering the HE due to system losses. Wort exiting the HE will always be the highest temp in the system.

Forget HERMS, think about wort in the mash tun. Whatever heat source you use to heat the wort to the next step will need to apply a higher temp than the required mash temp to achieve the mash temp within a reasonable time. Is this desireable? Do you want parts of your wort at say 88C during the time it takes to raise the mash temp, how would this effect enzymic reactions in the wort. You would have used a mash temp of whatever, say 66C but some of the wort would have been at a much higher temp for a period of time to achieve this, do you think your wort would behave in the same way as wort that had never been above 66C. Wort fermentbility is pretty much the result of averages of temp over time, even single infusion mashes. The average of the water/wort temp over time is what determines the fermentability of the wort. With HERMS the wort temp should never rise above the set step temp monitored at the HE out, wort will recirculate through the HE during the rest period and again an average mash temp will result. The upside is that the wort has never been way above mash temp as in infusion or direct heating of the mash tun. This results in better control of fermentability.

My last post on this subject, there is an encylopaedia of info available and I'm sick of rehashing it, seems there's those that get it and.....well......you know.

Use your HERMS in whatever way makes good beer on your system. And most importantly, if you don't use a HERMS feel free to advise all and sundry on their use and on the pros and cons of their inclusion in the brewing process.

Screwy