Herms - Excessively Looong Ramp Time

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Surprised Tony hasn't chimed it, he's probably over it, I'm bloody close. He used to monitor wort out of the Mash Tun, wort out of the HE and Wort returning to the Mash Tun.

Exactly Andy, fcuk it, if it's returning at the right (mash) temp then that is all that matters. The most acurate place to control it is as close to the HE out as possible, naturally as you don't want the wort temp to rise above your mash temp, if monitoring at the mash tun return there will be system losses between the HE and the mash return so the wort would naturally be higher at the HE out than than at the mash tun return.

Wort leaving the Mash Tun will always be at a higher temp than entering the HE due to system losses. Wort exiting the HE will always be the highest temp in the system.

Forget HERMS, think about wort in the mash tun. Whatever heat source you use to heat the wort to the next step will need to apply a higher temp than the required mash temp to achieve the mash temp within a reasonable time. Is this desireable? Do you want parts of your wort at say 88C during the time it takes to raise the mash temp, how would this effect enzymic reactions in the wort. You would have used a mash temp of whatever, say 66C but some of the wort would have been at a much higher temp for a period of time to achieve this, do you think your wort would behave in the same way as wort that had never been above 66C. Wort fermentbility is pretty much the result of averages of temp over time, even single infusion mashes. The average of the water/wort temp over time is what determines the fermentability of the wort. With HERMS the wort temp should never rise above the set step temp monitored at the HE out, wort will recirculate through the HE during the rest period and again an average mash temp will result. The upside is that the wort has never been way above mash temp as in infusion or direct heating of the mash tun. This results in better control of fermentability.

My last post on this subject, there is an encylopaedia of info available and I'm sick of rehashing it, seems there's those that get it and.....well......you know.

Use your HERMS in whatever way makes good beer on your system. And most importantly, if you don't use a HERMS feel free to advise all and sundry on their use and on the pros and cons of their inclusion in the brewing process.

Screwy


Yep, I reckon you must be over it :lol: Have read a number of your posts on herms and sometimes like others I am guilty of missing some of the more interesting techy bits, like wort return temp from the HE. Won't push your blood pressure anymore so I reckon I will leave any other HE things for Tony.


BYB
 
On a serious note I am keen to organise an all HERMS brewers brew day? I think there could be benefits to all... sharing ideas, methods, setups etc? we seem to be fringe dwellers, no?


Shhhh, HERMS brewers, underground organisation, don't remember you being officially shown the handshake yet Chappo :ph34r:


Screwy
 
I'm sure you know the password though Chappo........











:ph34r:





:D
 
Back on topic (what was it again?? :blink: )

Anyways I will mashing in about an hour or so, dunno what yet, I had a plan but I cant remember what it was :unsure: . Will keep a update of the process as it progresses. I have printed Screwy loose "instructional" which was detailed enough and go from there. Pretty sure Ive got it sussed now, bottom line is "FORGET THE GRIST TEMP"

Cheers Ears.

Sully
 
Back on topic (what was it again?? :blink: )

Anyways I will mashing in about an hour or so, dunno what yet, I had a plan but I cant remember what it was :unsure: . Will keep a update of the process as it progresses. I have printed Screwy loose "instructional" which was detailed enough and go from there. Pretty sure Ive got it sussed now, bottom line is "FORGET THE GRIST TEMP"

Cheers Ears.

Sully


Gunna be a piss easy day and an awesome beer.........................piece a piss this brewing game eh :lol:

Screwy
 
strange there's meant to be this huge hash of info, i searched extensively and eventually started a thread on my problems, and noone mention the liquid being at temp is all you need in there either. It kinda makes sense now you mention it, but I'm still not convinced.

Surely if your grainbed is reading lower, yeah it doesnt matter what temp the solids are, but those solids are sitting in most of your wort, which is also that temperature. If I want the sugar profile given from a 67C mash, and 50mls of wort is at 67C for a few seconds, then gets returned returned to a 62C bath for 25mins before it enters the HE again, surely I'll be getting the 62C profile, not the 67C one. Like sure itll work, but you may end up with a very highly attenuating beer when you dont want one.
 
UPDATE:

Decided to go with Docs Light Session double batch :icon_drool2: :icon_drool2: ...

Following Screwy's directions I am now at mash temp in 17mins ramping from 54 deg to 69 deg.

Still not relaxed with the concept as I keep looking at the Tun temp gauge and its only showing 55 deg... :unsure: I might remove it - can't see cant worry...

She'll be right :icon_cheers:

Sully
 
If you're worried, try sticking a thermometer into the top liquid layer of the mash and see what that is. I couldn't get my head around the concept at first either, but it does actually produce beers as you intend them to be.


Cheers
 
strange there's meant to be this huge hash of info, i searched extensively and eventually started a thread on my problems, and noone mention the liquid being at temp is all you need in there either. It kinda makes sense now you mention it, but I'm still not convinced.

Surely if your grainbed is reading lower, yeah it doesnt matter what temp the solids are, but those solids are sitting in most of your wort, which is also that temperature. If I want the sugar profile given from a 67C mash, and 50mls of wort is at 67C for a few seconds, then gets returned returned to a 62C bath for 25mins before it enters the HE again, surely I'll be getting the 62C profile, not the 67C one. Like sure itll work, but you may end up with a very highly attenuating beer when you dont want one.


No one's asking you to jump on the train Sammus. Like I said there is no one right way, persevere with your method you may find a work around for your system.

Cheers,

Screwy
 
UPDATE:

Decided to go with Docs Light Session double batch :icon_drool2: :icon_drool2: ...

Following Screwy's directions I am now at mash temp in 17mins ramping from 54 deg to 69 deg.

Still not relaxed with the concept as I keep looking at the Tun temp gauge and its only showing 55 deg... :unsure: I might remove it - can't see cant worry...

She'll be right :icon_cheers:

Sully

Good call Sully

Now if you look at that temp dial again I'm gunna smash it with some big and blunt!
 
Good call Sully

Now if you look at that temp dial again I'm gunna smash it with some big and blunt!
Don't do that Chap Chap, you might hurt your head :ph34r:


UPDATE:

Mashing out now, ramp time 69deg to 77deg in 10 min

Its like popping my AG cherry all again, exciting stuff as well as nerve racking... :lol:

Cheers

Sully
 
Just doughed in the same recipe (well my take on it anyway, with dry hopping).

Hope all is travelling well Sully!

Cheers
 
No one's asking you to jump on the train Sammus. Like I said there is no one right way, persevere with your method you may find a work around for your system.

Cheers,

Screwy

Sorry mate I didn't mean it to come across like I was dissing your theory or anything, just was hoping for someone to explain why what I said isn't right. IE if you have 99% of you're wort at 62C for the whole mash, while little bits of it are repeatedly heated to 67C then cooled to 62 again, why do you get the malt profile of a 67C mash?
 
UPDATE:

On the boil and first Hop addition done.

Target pre-boil Gravity 1.027 - got 1.028 - SCHAWEEEET :super: How f*cken easy was that hey? NOW I need a bigger HLT as I don't have the excess time for it to reach temp for sparging.

Cheers for all the help and detailed instructions Screwy and to everyone else for their input in getting it sorted.


Sully :icon_cheers:
 
This begs an interesting question actually. I'm unsure of the temperature dependance with regards to solubility but it may be interesting to do a brew, omitting the grain bed all together - perform a quick hot extraction (skip the mash, sparge first?) - collect the wort seperately from the grain, and mash grain-free. Efficiency would probably be low due to enzymes not being in proximity to the grains itself, but I'm curious to the result nonetheless. You could potentially hit your desired mash temp extremely accurately.

Sully are you using an undersized HLT ? (enough for strike, but not for sparge)? If so, depending on the volumes, you can heat the sparge during mash time - a good hour and a half there will easily get 20-40L up to sparge temp with a 2kw element
 

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