HERMS Brewery Controller Advice

[jlmcgrath]

Hey everyone,

Hoping to get some advice and reassurance on my control panel build from those who have done this before.

This is a multi question post so to avoid confusion, I will list my current plan and then put a list of questions at the end.

I have a 10amp circuit and a 15 amp circuit within a few meters of where I brew and plan to use them both.

My system will consist of:

100L HLT heated by a 3500w element
100L MLT
Nev's Herm-it heat exchanger powered by a 2400w element. http://onlinebrewingsupplies.com/product_info.php?cPath=91&products_id=657
100L Kettle (gas fired)
2 klaxin pumps- 1 for water, 1 for wort

My current plan was to feed the controller with both the 10amp and 15 amp circuit. 10A would run the herms+wort pump+PID, while the 15A runs the HLT + water pump+ PID+ timer.

For controller parts, and features I was looking at having:

Key switch to turn the entire controller on plus an indicator light.
Emergency stop
Auber SYL-2352 + PT100 temp sensor + 25A SSR+ element on indicator light for 3500w HLT element
Auber SYL-2352P + PT100 temp sensor + 25A SSR + element on indicator light for 2400w herms element
Auber JSL-73B + indicator light+ buzzer
On/off switch + indicator light for each pump

Now for a slew of questions.

With my current plans of using both the 10A and 15A circuits, is that enough power? Do I need to add a 2nd 10A source for the electronics and give each element its own circuit?

Are 25A SSR's adequate for this type of setup or would I be better going with 40A? I assume heat sinks would be a good idea. Would you recommend internal or external heatsinks?

Do I need to have switches for the elements (on/off or on/auto/off) for both elements? What is the advantage of using a 3 way switch? In what situation would you bypass the PID and run the element without PID control?

I would like to be able to connect the HLT circuit to a timer, set to start heating the water about an hour before I wake up/get home from work. Is this possible with my current plans?

Are there any other features I should look into adding?

Thanks in advance for sharing your knowledge. I have already learned heaps (though it may not seem like it) from others builds.

Cheers,

Jeff

 

[dent]

With my current plans of using both the 10A and 15A circuits, is that enough power? Do I need to add a 2nd 10A source for the electronics and give each element its own circuit?

Nah the 10 + 15 should be good.

Are 25A SSR's adequate for this type of setup or would I be better going with 40A? I assume heat sinks would be a good idea. Would you recommend internal or external heatsinks?

While 25A ones will work fine, it is worth the small cost for the 40A versions as they generate less heat.

Do I need to have switches for the elements (on/off or on/auto/off) for both elements? What is the advantage of using a 3 way switch? In what situation would you bypass the PID and run the element without PID control?

I dunno why you'd want to bypass the PID for a mash or HLT setup. For a kettle you would.

I would like to be able to connect the HLT circuit to a timer, set to start heating the water about an hour before I wake up/get home from work. Is this possible with my current plans?

Sure. Best to get one with a real-time clock rather than just a simple delay timer.

 

[Camo6]

Just to add my 2c!

Now for a slew of questions.

With my current plans of using both the 10A and 15A circuits, is that enough power? Do I need to add a 2nd 10A source for the electronics and give each element its own circuit?

I run two 10a feeds and power both circuits the same as you've planned. Your 15a circuit should have no worries with the 3500W element.

Are 25A SSR's adequate for this type of setup or would I be better going with 40A? I assume heat sinks would be a good idea. Would you recommend internal or external heatsinks?

Like Dent has mentioned, it never hurts to go bigger but 25a will suffice. I used an external heatsink to save adding a 12v circuit to control internal fans, add vents etc.

Do I need to have switches for the elements (on/off or on/auto/off) for both elements? What is the advantage of using a 3 way switch? In what situation would you bypass the PID and run the element without PID control?

I just use 2 pos switches to cut power to elements. Definitely need them to kill power when you stop recircing the mash. Only reason I could think of to use a 3 pos would be to leave the HLT in manual mode if you want to use a timer as mentioned below (although I'm pretty sure the PID will let you do this anyway).

I would like to be able to connect the HLT circuit to a timer, set to start heating the water about an hour before I wake up/get home from work. Is this possible with my current plans?

Might not be worth the risks when you're not around but the 2352 will start heating once it's turned on. Not sure if the 2352P will though.

Are there any other features I should look into adding?

If you power your element indicator LED's on the PID output to the SSR be aware that this is extra low voltage and will require 12v LED's.

Thanks in advance for sharing your knowledge. I have already learned heaps (though it may not seem like it) from others builds.

Cheers,

Jeff

Good luck with the build mate. I learnt a heap doing mine and loved every minute of it. Be sure to post some pics.

 

[dave81]

Bith circuit will be overloaded the protection more than likely wont trip but in the long run you will melt the powerpoints and plugs.
2400 w element in 10 a gpo =10a then you are adding a 1.1a (from memory pump)
Same for the 3500 /240v =14.5a + 1.1 pump.

 

[dent]

Only if they are particularly crappy ones or they are in poor condition I reckon. In which case even the regular 10A load would be almost as bad.

 

[jlmcgrath]

Bith circuit will be overloaded the protection more than likely wont trip but in the long run you will melt the powerpoints and plugs.
2400 w element in 10 a gpo =10a then you are adding a 1.1a (from memory pump)
Same for the 3500 /240v =14.5a + 1.1 pump.

I may add another 10A feed then. There is another 10A gpo around the corner that is on a seperate circuit that I could use and keep myself safe.

I dunno why you'd want to bypass the PID for a mash or HLT setup. For a kettle you would.

I am drawing some inspiration from the Electric Brewery control panel and for some reason, I thought the switches under the PIDs were element on/off switches. After looking at it again last night I realized the switches control whether the PID alarm turns on the buzzer.

 

[jlmcgrath]

So I will upgrade the SSR's to 40A and use an external heatsink. Where is everyone else getting theirs from? Could probably find what I need with a quick google search.

I will add another 10A feed to control both pumps, PIDs and the timer.

Will also add a on/off (SPST?) switch for each element.

What about a safe start interlock? has anyone installed one of these?

Do I need a power in 240V relay for each of my Power in feeds?

I will keep learning but I think at this point I have an idea of what I want, but less of an idea of how to get there.

Thanks for your patience.

Jeff

 

[Camo6]

Are you going to put RCBOs in for each circuit? Saves you walking to the meter box if one trips and the RCD function is extra peace of mind even if your circuits already have them.

An interlock? I'd avoid it. Brewdays can be busy enough without stopping to hum into a little tube and most brew days you'll want a few beers anyhoo.

 

[dent]

So I will upgrade the SSR's to 40A and use an external heatsink. Where is everyone else getting theirs from? Could probably find what I need with a quick google search.

I have very good results from our finest cheapest hong kong ebay dealers.

What about a safe start interlock? has anyone installed one of these?

Not sure what you mean by this.

Do I need a power in 240V relay for each of my Power in feeds?

Don't see why you would need that.

--

The extra RCD as Camo suggests is a nice convenience and backup factor.

Please make sure you securely earth your elements, pots, and all metal parts that any cable or wire passes through, or on. Plastic glands are better than metal for this reason (metal glands + plastic box = no good).

 

[Camo6]

Dent, I think the Electric Brewery website now utilises a keyed interlock for unauthorised use.

Personally I run my main power through a keyed master switch I bought from Gava's Man Emporium? site, though the key never gets removed.
As far as mechanical 240v relays go, I use them to switch the main loads as I didn't have faith in the Chinese switches handling the current draw. Some people also use 12v relays to switch their loads so there's only ELV at the switch. This of course means running a step down transformer in your system. All of which was too much hassle for me at the time.
Heaps of options, the fun bits figuring out how it can work for you.

 

[jlmcgrath]

What was I thinking putting an interlock on my brewing system. What a silly idea.

Definitely going to use an RCBO for each circuit.

I think I will still use a keyed master switch. Maybe its just to make it look cool.

Camo, I was looking at your controller build and its almost exactly what I had in mind, minus an Auber timer.
Do you have a schematic and a few more close up pics of your internal wiring you would be willing to send me?

What was your reasoning in putting an alarm on each PID instead of tying them all to a single buzzer?

I noticed that you have 3 relays in your controller Camo. One for each element and one for the Main. How would this work with 3 power feeds? Do I need one for each feed as well as one for each element? What A rating are they?

My mate who is a qualified sparky also told me he would walk me through wiring everything up. I mostly just need to make sure I have all the correct components before I get started as he is a new father and his time is limited.

Thanks again guys, its greatly appreciated.

 

[TheWiggman]

If you have three seperate incoming feeds, you'll need a triple pole relay (TPST) for power isolation if you don't want to use switches. This will only isolate the three active lines, meaning the neutrals (which would be shared in your home power box) would not be isolated. This shouldn't matter, but consult with said sparky mate on what he would recommend.
The alternative is three relays, one for each feed. That starts taking up room and getting a little convoluted fast.

Seeing as he'll be signing off on the job why not not arrange a catchup with the girls to see the new bub while you bring around some of your finest? Sort out the basic components and approach and then he can give it the green light later. Power isolation/feed is probably the most important feature of a new control panel.

 

[Camo6]

What was I thinking putting an interlock on my brewing system. What a silly idea.

Definitely going to use an RCBO for each circuit.

I think I will still use a keyed master switch. Maybe its just to make it look cool.

Camo, I was looking at your controller build and its almost exactly what I had in mind, minus an Auber timer.
Do you have a schematic and a few more close up pics of your internal wiring you would be willing to send me?

What was your reasoning in putting an alarm on each PID instead of tying them all to a single buzzer?

I noticed that you have 3 relays in your controller Camo. One for each element and one for the Main. How would this work with 3 power feeds? Do I need one for each feed as well as one for each element? What A rating are they?

My mate who is a qualified sparky also told me he would walk me through wiring everything up. I mostly just need to make sure I have all the correct components before I get started as he is a new father and his time is limited.

Thanks again guys, its greatly appreciated.

Hey Jlmcgrath. Sounds like you're moving fullsteam ahead. Good stuff.

The keyed switch is a great idea if you leave your controller in situ to stop inquisitive hands.

I used two alarms as I was inspired by a couple of builds on here and I like symmetry! But to reduce space, especially if you'll run three alarms, you could just run the one beeper.

I used DPDT relays as they were easily obtained off ebay. For my feeds I'm only switching the actives so you'll need to include an extra pole for the extra feed. Obviously get your mate to check what current ratings you'll need with your equipment and the best way to do it.

I'll try and get a few pics of my wiring when I'm near a pc. I'll pm them to you when I get a chance.

Note "I AM NOT AN ELECTRICIAN!" (Yet) But everything I did was double checked and approved by a qualified.

How are you going sourcing the bits? While I got a lot of my bits off ebay, I also used Gava's brewrig.com.au site (now manemporium I think) and found the prices comparable to ordering from overseas without the long wait. No affiliation, but his setup inspired me with mine and he's contributor to this site.

There's a few threads on builds on here. I've linked a few in the 'show us your brew controller' thread.

Cheers
Cam

 

[jlmcgrath]

Wiggman, will a TPST relay still work if the incoming feeds are of different amperage?

Sorry for all these questions, I am just trying to wrap my head around how this all works.

 

[TheWiggman]

Yep (FYI, makes a bit more sense to say 'current' than amperage). Relays just allow a path for the electricity to flow. In a TPST repaly, three seperate paths. Provided your current/s doesn't exceed the rating of the relay you will be safe.

 

[Camo6]

Camo, I was looking at your controller build and its almost exactly what I had in mind, minus an Auber timer.
Do you have a schematic and a few more close up pics of your internal wiring you would be willing to send me?

Hey jlm, sorry forgot to PM you but put some pics in my gallery of a few close ups. Also, here's a link to a rough schematic for my setup.

 

[jlmcgrath]

Hi guys,

Having a hard time figuring all this out.

Does anyone have any suggestions for reading/learning what I need to so I can get this all figured out?

Thanks

Jeff

 

[Yob]

Have a search for "dedicated HERMS "

All answers lie therein