Help with my water

[Beerbuoy]

I've just moved to Karratha, WA and the water here is very hard, 300ppm. Water analysis attached. I need some input from the water experts as to what my options are.

I'm using the water calculator on the Brewers Friend site. The water profile ID is GBHVC5V if you want to check it out. Going by the calculator I can add some gypsum to get the sodium/chloride ratio balanced and some citric acid to get the mash ph. Example is for my IPA. Problem is I think there is already to much hardness in the water so I don't want to add more stuff to it.

I'm thinking I will dilute the water with about 50% RO then make some small additions from there. I don't want to use 100% RO because I haven't got the knowledge to build up my own water and I only have gypsum and calcium chloride.

Questions:

Do I need to dilute the water or am I being paranoid? I haven't brewed yet as I don't have my gear.

Can I assume the RO water will have zero minerals and hardness for the water calculator?

I made an enquiry today about an RO setup and was told I would need a calcium removal cartridge before the RO membrane? I thought the RO was capable of removing the calcium? I believe the calcium removal cartridge will just replace the calcium with sodium which will then have to be removed by the RO anyway. Do I really need the extra filter on top of the RO or are they just trying to up sell?

Any recommendations on where to purchase a RO setup?


On a side note, for anyone living in WA the Water Corp now has all their water analysis info online.

Cheers

Ian

View attachment Karratha Water.XLSX

 

[danestead]

Gday mate.

I live in perth and the water from the tap is in excess of 400 tds! You are not alone. When I lived in sydney it was about 40tds which is not far off what a RO unit will achieve once it filters our WA water!

RO water will not equal absolute zero in terms of minerals etc but for what we are doing it is pretty damn close, so yes, treat it as that.

Dont be afraid of using 100% RO water. Ive only used 100% RO/DI ( reverse osmosis deionided water - actually 0 everything rather than close to 0. H20, thats it). If you dont already have it, google and download the excel spreadsheet EZ Water Calculator. Up the top there is an option to make your water 100% RO. From there, you are fine to use your calcium sulphate and calcium chloride to bring your mash PH into the correct range (which is indicated on the spreadsheet). If you keep the sulphate/chloride ratio at 1 (also indicated down the bottom of the spreadsheet) you wont go wrong. If you want to advance more into water profiles and chloride/sulphate ratios feel free to do so. Randy Mosher has some ideal water profiles published which are easy to copy with the use of some other supermarket salts like bicarb soda, epsom salts etc.

What im trying to say is dont be afraid of using pire water and working up from there. Its not as hard as it sounds.

As for the calcium business they are going on about, I dont know, but it sounds like BS to me.

 

[dblunn]

Another good spreadsheet to use Bru'n water (https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/ ), the author of that site/spreadsheet is on this forum. If you need to acidify the water and increase the sulfate level perhaps you could use sulfuric acid (not the battery variety).
Dave

 

[dblunn]

Here is the Bru'n water spreadsheet with your 2014 values added

View attachment Brun Water v1_16bs Karratha.xls

 

[manticle]

Be really, really, really cautious if you decide to use sulphuric acid.

I wouldn't.

Depending on what you are brewwing, having some extra calcium in there is going to be a good thing so adding calcium sulphate + any required lactic or phosphoric acid is going to be far preferable to handling and storing H2SO4

 

[Cervantes]

On a side note, for anyone living in WA the Water Corp now has all their water analysis info online.

I thought that I'd add a link

 

[Dunkelbrau]

Agreed with manticle, there are much safer options, citric is available at the supermarket, and lactic is available at any good home brew shop.

Failing all of that, acidulater malt.

I usually just use acodulated malt for pale beers, its quite east and available at most brew shops.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Hard water makes good English Ales, Porters & Stouts

Why not tune your beers to suit the water........

 

[Beerbuoy]

Hard water makes good English Ales, Porters & Stouts

Why not tune your beers to suit the water........

I guess thats partly what I'm asking, can I use the water as is? It tastes like shite and the taps here are covered in scale so I'm a bit put off by that.
The other problem is Karratha weather is not really suited to Porters and Stouts, its a little warm up here.

I only mentioned Citric acid because thats what I have. The nearest LHBS is 1600km away.

Cheers for the spreadsheet dblunn. All extra reading to help get my head around the water thing.

So whats the general opinion on water with 300ppm, is it excessive or am I being a girl?

 

[RobB]

Comparing your 2014 figures to the ideal ranges in How to Brew in brackets:

Calcium: 64 [50 -150]
Magnesium: 38 [10 - 30]
Sodium: 65 [0 - 150]
Sulphate: 59 [50 - 150, or up to 350 for very bitter beers]
Chloride: 122 [0 - 250]
Bicarbonate: 303 [0 - 50 for pale beers, up to 150 for amber beers, up to 250 for porters and stouts]

Your bicarbonate is huge. Everything else is good, even if the Mg is a touch high. Your water wants to be turned into black beer.

People tend to describe water with lots of minerals as hard, but hardness is only a measure of the calcium and magnesium (expressed as "as CaCO3"). Your Ca and Mg are close to spot on, so your water isn't terribly hard........just very chalky!

Bicarbonate can be a tricky one to reduce. You can add lime, but you may end up chasing your tail with the pH. Boiling the water first will cause some of the bicarbonate to precipatate as calcium carbonate, but it's a bit hit and miss as to how much this removes.

Unless you really love stout, I think you could do worse than ask Santa for an RO filter. Neville at OBS (formerly Gryphon) has them:http://onlinebrewingsupplies.com/product_info.php?cPath=74&products_id=683

These have a carbon filter before the RO unit, so you just connect straight to your tap. As for adding salts, it's easy if you use the online calculators. Most brewing shops will sell gypsum, chalk and calcium chloride and these, in combination with kitchen salt, will allow you to create the water you need.

Edit: I just noticed how variable your water is from year to year. 2013 was a completely different beast.

 

[dicko]

IMO RO or rain water is the way to go and adjust the minerals as required for the type of beer with one of the spreadsheets above.

If you collect rain water just ensure that the storage is relatively clean.

My view on a report supplied by a water supplier is that they only tell you what you want to hear and those reports vary greatly from year to year. If you intend to use and adjust your town water supply then I suggest you have it independently tested as it may vary greatly from the current report.
The cost of an independent water test is a lot more expensive than bying an RO unit.

The best thing I have ever done in brewing is use RO water with my own mineral additions. My hometown water is absolute crap.

 

[Dunkelbrau]

So you should be able to reduce bicarbonate by boiling, but at the cost of LPG you may as well spend the cash on the pureau brand water to dilute your water.

Just as a side note, my water from the tap must be as dirty as river water (solid matter, dirt and dust etc) because my sediment filter is crazy dirty and I've probably only made 1000L and its a completely closed system under pressure. Crazy!

 

[Beerbuoy]

Thanks for the replies. Been doing plenty of reading over the last few days and I've decided to go with RO and add my own minerals.

Is it possible to build up my own water from RO with just Gypsum and Calcium Chloride? Thats all I have atm and I'd like to keep it simple.
I'll have a play with the spreadsheet and see what it thinks.

Cheers

 

[manticle]

As long as you have a source of zinc (wyeast yeast nutrient for example), and you aren't using heaps of adjuncts, you should be fine with those salts. A touch of table salt if you feel like it but don't go overboard.

 

[dicko]

Thanks for the replies. Been doing plenty of reading over the last few days and I've decided to go with RO and add my own minerals.

Is it possible to build up my own water from RO with just Gypsum and Calcium Chloride? Thats all I have atm and I'd like to keep it simple.
I'll have a play with the spreadsheet and see what it thinks.

Cheers

If you steep the dark grains separate to the mash and add the steep liquid to the beginning of the boil then you will get away with those two salts.
A small amount of Magnesium does help a bit and as Manticle said, use a yeast nutrient.
Good luck with your brewing.

 

[HBHB]

If you've got RO available, then use it to advantage. Then use any of the above mentioned spreadsheets available and build your own profile to suit each style.

 

[danestead]

If you are getting into salts and eventually build a complete profile of water rather than just the calc sulphate and chloride additions, id suggest investing in a cheap (less than $10) set of jewellery scale off ebay. Look for jewellery scales in the 100 or 200g range. The 2 types myself and my friend bought are crazy accurate for a cheap chinese scale. I bought 1,5,10g etc calibration weights and my scales are accurate to within 0.02g.

 

[Beerbuoy]

As long as you have a source of zinc (wyeast yeast nutrient for example), and you aren't using heaps of adjuncts, you should be fine with those salts. A touch of table salt if you feel like it but don't go overboard.

Is the Zinc required for the mash or for the yeast?

 

[manticle]

Yeast function.