homebrewnewb
Well-Known Member
Also, are you going to transfer it to a secondary?
Help with my first RIS
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Haha, cool, thanks!
Hydrometer..
No worries, nice and easy...
You mean add say 1L of wort to the starter to double it, or less/more...?
No, but I'll pick one up from the LHBS and some more yeast + nutrient. Would I be better sticking with US-05 or should I just bite the bullet and grab a liquid yeast like WLP001/WY1056?
Yes, I think so, clean start and get it off the massive trub currently at the bottom (like 3-4L of it currently)...
homebrewnewb
Well-Known Member
Hydro, so that rules out dud refractometer reading, providing its a correct reading, so there's still complex sugars to get converted.
No major temp change, so the yeast aren't shocked/dormant.
I am really hoping you get home and there's some action on that airlock...
All i can really think of is worts not oxygenated enough, or theres not enough nutrient.
Which if i am correct, we should be able to solve.
Not to sure how much wort you would you would need 2-300ml would be a good guess, i am sure someone can give us the correct numbers, however after your 1L with DME has krausen, maybe do a 100g DME/100mL wort solution and add it to the starter, this should allow the yeast to work up to whats in your FV, just to sweeten the starter up a bit, once that looks good, we pitch.
US05 should be okay up to 10-12 ABV from my reading, it's pretty robust, i don't think changing the horse halfway thought the race is a good idea but someone may disagree.
A flask isn't essential but it makes boiling/cooling/pitching easier, and you know handy as for that stir plate you will be whipping up soon
You can do it in a 2/3L pot on the stove and a funnel into the FV. Should be okay.
Make sure everything is sanitized before it goes into the FV, easy to forget stuff like that when you're stressing out. Keep it as clean as you can.
Moving into a secondary isn't critical or moving it off the traub isn't super urgent at this point in time, in fact the yeast is quite partial to using flocked yeast to build on/with if i recall correctly. The main point is if you do move it off, you will be rousing and re-oxygenating the wort/beer which is what we need at this point, gotta be careful not to oxidize it too much but since it is still going (hopefully) i think it's a solid plan.
Now for you next question, should you pitch first then move to secondary or move to secondary then pitch.
Not sure, I don't use secondaries. Hopefully someone has an opinion on that. I am inclined to say move then pitch, taking a little bit of traub on the journey.
No major temp change, so the yeast aren't shocked/dormant.
I am really hoping you get home and there's some action on that airlock...
All i can really think of is worts not oxygenated enough, or theres not enough nutrient.
Which if i am correct, we should be able to solve.
Not to sure how much wort you would you would need 2-300ml would be a good guess, i am sure someone can give us the correct numbers, however after your 1L with DME has krausen, maybe do a 100g DME/100mL wort solution and add it to the starter, this should allow the yeast to work up to whats in your FV, just to sweeten the starter up a bit, once that looks good, we pitch.
US05 should be okay up to 10-12 ABV from my reading, it's pretty robust, i don't think changing the horse halfway thought the race is a good idea but someone may disagree.
A flask isn't essential but it makes boiling/cooling/pitching easier, and you know handy as for that stir plate you will be whipping up soon
You can do it in a 2/3L pot on the stove and a funnel into the FV. Should be okay.
Make sure everything is sanitized before it goes into the FV, easy to forget stuff like that when you're stressing out. Keep it as clean as you can.
Moving into a secondary isn't critical or moving it off the traub isn't super urgent at this point in time, in fact the yeast is quite partial to using flocked yeast to build on/with if i recall correctly. The main point is if you do move it off, you will be rousing and re-oxygenating the wort/beer which is what we need at this point, gotta be careful not to oxidize it too much but since it is still going (hopefully) i think it's a solid plan.
Now for you next question, should you pitch first then move to secondary or move to secondary then pitch.
Not sure, I don't use secondaries. Hopefully someone has an opinion on that. I am inclined to say move then pitch, taking a little bit of traub on the journey.
Okay, cool, thanks! Just one more quick question, how many packets should I build the new starter with, would one packet do given the current gravity is at 1.038? Thanks for your time and advice, I appreciate it!
homebrewnewb
Well-Known Member
just one i would say, if you had 100L that would be a different story, that's point of graduating the starter with the dme/wort after it's krausened. just gotta give the yeast an easy feed simple sugar then move it on the more complex chains, the dme is easy food, however you want a starter that's able to manage the more complex stuff, so we're trying to bump it in the right direction.
i just checked and at a guess your RIS is about 6.5~7 percent yeah?
Have a josh around with this
https://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/
i just checked and at a guess your RIS is about 6.5~7 percent yeah?
Have a josh around with this
https://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/
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Cool, thanks! I have been using that calculator since this disaster started and it's been helpful (I understand mrmalty is also good and have had a play with that too). I've got it at about 6.5% as well. Righto, about to head to the LHBS, will check in later, nobody tell my wife! Haha!
EDIT: Can I use dark dry malt, or does it have to be light?
EDIT: Can I use dark dry malt, or does it have to be light?
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homebrewnewb
Well-Known Member
cool, good luck. i think we'll need to build that starter to go into 6.5% another question, how did your mashing go? do you have the notes for the profile?
EDIT: i think light is better more fermentables i believe.
for your consideration, also i hope you are taking notes.
https://brewerschoice.com.au/makingbrewersyeaststarters/
https://brewerschoice.com.au/brewing-high-alcohol-beers/
EDIT: i think light is better more fermentables i believe.
for your consideration, also i hope you are taking notes.
https://brewerschoice.com.au/makingbrewersyeaststarters/
https://brewerschoice.com.au/brewing-high-alcohol-beers/
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manticle
Standing up for the Aussie Bottler
If you want to reactivate a stalled ferment, whether using dry or liquid an ACTIVE starter is the way to go.
Okay, so I hope I've done this right! I bought a 5L flask and following the guidelines on the Brewer's Friends yeast calculator I have created a 2L starter by adding 2L of water and 216g of light dry malt (well, 200g of light malt and 15g of dark malt because I only had 200g of the other) and some yeast nutrient. Anyway, I boiled that up in the flask for 20 mins and then moved to cooling it in the sink with cold water. Once it approached room temp (~20 degrees) I started rehydrating one packet of US05, following the Safale instructions. Whilst this was going on I kept vigorously shaking the wort, like, a lot. I know it's not as good as an O2 setup but I did my best to really smash that thing up. Then I pitched the rehydrated yeast. Now it's sitting on the bookcase, looks like a piece of modern art! I've just got a foil hat on it at the moment, sanitised of course. Now to wait for it to start fermenting...
In terms of "profile" I assume you mean water profile? I actually don't know what it is but I have emailed TasWater for the information. I know we have fairly soft, neutral water but I'll find out for sure. I don't have the means for testing pH at the moment, again, I know that's something I should be doing but I'm just getting used to the equipment I have before going any further (yeah, probably shouldn't have attempted a RIS, I know)!
So that's where I'm at right now. Oh, I checked the gravity of that two-day old sample I mentioned earlier, it was 1.036/7, hard to tell exactly but looks like it might have dropped another point at least, if not two. I assume that means there are still fermentables but the previous re-pitching just wasn't up to the job due to the current alcoholic environment (the wort, not me)...
I'm a BIAB'er so I did a reiterated mash given the size of the grist. I don't have notes in front of me but I did take notes on the day. In a nutshell, initially I mashed just over half the grain bill at 67 degrees for 40 minutes. I then drained the bag and the temp dropped down to about 64 degrees, so I raised it back to 66 degrees and then mashed in the remaining grain for an hour - temp held consistently, dropped to 65 degrees by the end of the hour..
In terms of "profile" I assume you mean water profile? I actually don't know what it is but I have emailed TasWater for the information. I know we have fairly soft, neutral water but I'll find out for sure. I don't have the means for testing pH at the moment, again, I know that's something I should be doing but I'm just getting used to the equipment I have before going any further (yeah, probably shouldn't have attempted a RIS, I know)!
So that's where I'm at right now. Oh, I checked the gravity of that two-day old sample I mentioned earlier, it was 1.036/7, hard to tell exactly but looks like it might have dropped another point at least, if not two. I assume that means there are still fermentables but the previous re-pitching just wasn't up to the job due to the current alcoholic environment (the wort, not me)...
manticle
Standing up for the Aussie Bottler
Treat most tas water as a blank slate mineral wise (not discouraging asking for an actual profile - definitely do that and explain why. You want calcium, sulphate, chloride, magnesium and zinc levels especially. Also bicarbonate levels and pH. And not a concern from my experience here but disinfection method (chlorine vs chloramine).
And assurance water is potable but if it ain't, they're either negligent or you've moved to a third world country in your sleep and not realised.
And assurance water is potable but if it ain't, they're either negligent or you've moved to a third world country in your sleep and not realised.
manticle
Standing up for the Aussie Bottler
And don't forget fast/forced ferment tests. Try with the current yeast type, try with a higher attenuating/higher abv tolerant yeast and work out the potential fg.
I think I'm approaching that time, so flagging early as there's only a small window of opportunity...
homebrewnewb
Well-Known Member
if you've got that starter done, and it's got krausen, and if you have added the dme/nutrient with wort and it's happy i would add another 2-300mL of wort and if its still happy after that, pitch it!
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Cool, it's got about a 1/2-3/4" krausen at the moment (just checked it)...
Do you mean the wort from my stout, or another DME-based wort? Either way, should I pitch that and then wait sort of how long (roughly)?
homebrewnewb
Well-Known Member
Yes i do, grab some wort from the FV and add it to the starter.
Ideally you'd want to do cell calculations.
Once you have added the wort to starter, give it another 24 hours, if its still krausening and happy pitch it.
There is some thought that you should chill it before pitching it into the FV/wort but i think you'll be right.
Ideally you'd want to do cell calculations.
Once you have added the wort to starter, give it another 24 hours, if its still krausening and happy pitch it.
There is some thought that you should chill it before pitching it into the FV/wort but i think you'll be right.
Okay, I'll do that now - and should I avoid shaking/agitating at this point? I did wonder about whether I need to crash it after and pour off some of the beer, anyway, I'll go add some stout to it and see what happens first! Cheers!
I did a Choc RIS as my 4th or 5th Ag batch. OG was 1.108.
I kegged it, its a few months old now and it is tasting really delicious. Velvety, chocolaty, good bitterness, not too boozy. Not very sessionable though.
I did 2 things differently to you. I oxygenated with pure o2 which helps the yeast in the early stages of fermentation. I also did a simple starter, I drew 1.5L of the wort, oxygenated it and pitched a single packet of WLP013. I pitched the while starter at high krausen, which wa about 12 hours later. Probably still a bit of an under pitch but the yeast performed well regardless. There was active fermentation for a little over a week at 21c before it gave up. FG was around 1.025 which is about right for that strain, 75% attenuation, putting it at around 11-12% ABV depending on the calc you use.
Proper aeration and a reasonable cell count is crucial for big beers.
Good luck getting that gravity down!
I kegged it, its a few months old now and it is tasting really delicious. Velvety, chocolaty, good bitterness, not too boozy. Not very sessionable though.
I did 2 things differently to you. I oxygenated with pure o2 which helps the yeast in the early stages of fermentation. I also did a simple starter, I drew 1.5L of the wort, oxygenated it and pitched a single packet of WLP013. I pitched the while starter at high krausen, which wa about 12 hours later. Probably still a bit of an under pitch but the yeast performed well regardless. There was active fermentation for a little over a week at 21c before it gave up. FG was around 1.025 which is about right for that strain, 75% attenuation, putting it at around 11-12% ABV depending on the calc you use.
Proper aeration and a reasonable cell count is crucial for big beers.
Good luck getting that gravity down!
homebrewnewb
Well-Known Member
well there's another point if you want to split some starter off and quick ferment via warmer temps as manticle stated above to try and get a final reading you could.
agitate the starter try to get as much 02 in there as you can add that wort and hopefully we've got a viable starter ready to get stuck into the rest of the FV.
keep it clean too!
agitate the starter try to get as much 02 in there as you can add that wort and hopefully we've got a viable starter ready to get stuck into the rest of the FV.
keep it clean too!
Just sanitising stuff now! So, perhaps a third small vessel to do a fast ferment in, like a pyrex measuring jug or something? Then I can see what it might do. I only need 100ml for a hydro reading, so maybe draw off 200ml and add just a teaspoon(?) of the starter to that...
