Help With Designing Ag Cherry Ripe Beer

[Muggus]

I'd almost be tempted to chuck in some oak chips to get the coconut flavour...among other things.
I'm currently giving doing a taste test on a oaked IPA of mine...aged 1 month with light toasted French oak chips. I did use quite alot however...somewhere in the realms of 10g/L, so the oak is quite noticable...but lightly toasted is the way to go, there's that certain buttered toast, vanilla and coconut thing working in this beer, that lingers on the palate. And, being a coconut and cherry beer, you could very well soak the oak chips in Cherry Brandy, or Malibu, or Creme de Cacoa, beforehand...or all 3!

This idea excites me just a bit too much...

 

[manticle]

Just toasted a few oak chips for a dubbel with 1388 (initially intended to add to sour dregs but not sure at this point) so I'll see if I can find some coconut in that. Will definitely be using real coconut and maybe some fresh young juice but could accentuate with the chips. Have plenty on hand.

 

[Kai]

On the coconut, I wouldn't worry excessively about some home-toasted coconut reducing your head retention. Better to think about getting that coco-nutty goodness in over worrying about the head, as I think the benefits of the former will well outweigh the detraction of the latter. I think I'd add toasted coconut anywhere between end of boil and secondary.

On the cherries, I'd add a small amount of cherry puree to secondary.

On the chocolate, I've no idea how I'd use cocoa nibs but there are a world of ways to introduce chocolatey goodness to a beer. In a way this would be the simplest part of your challenge.

Also I believe cherry ripes have a large proportion of apple in them, though whether you want to include that in your recipe would be up in the air...

 

[manticle]

Lady can't eat apples so they're out. Will be choc malt and maybe some lactose in the mix so choc and cherries (cherry additions being well documented) should work one way or another.

So far I have as possibilities

choc: Choc malt
Cocoa
bitter belgian Chocolate added to mash or secondary
Cacao nibs

Coconut:
Toasted fresh
Toasted dried
Fresh young juice
Toasted oak

Cherries:
Fresh/frozen
Pureed
Cherry brandy

yeast:

Suggestion for windsor, 1098 and 1099. I'm a liquid fan so 1099 is probable (have several test tubes full of gen 0)

Knowing me, I'll probably try and work out a little combo from each stack (besides yeast) that works flavourwise. I'll be aiming for distinct but subtle as overdoing any of this will be horrible. Bitterness and grain grist will need to hold their own. Fun times ahead.

 

[dcx3]

From a clueless viewpoint could you "dry hop" the coconut.

 

[manticle]

Most likely adding all of these flavours to secondary (as I would with dry hops) with possible exception of some choc (actual and nibs)

 

[felten]

It might not be safe to eat uncooked cocoa beans because of the fermenting process, though if they don't taste like chocolate, and they say they're raw I guess they are . Usually they're roasted before being winnowed.

 

[manticle]

This is what I'm looking at

Cherry Ripe Porter:

Style: Robust Porter
Type: All grain
Size: 24 liters
Color: 52 HCU (~22 SRM)
Bitterness: 28 IBU
OG: 1.063
FG: 1.015
Alcohol: 6.1% v/v (4.8% w/w)

Grain: 6kg JW Ale
150g Dingemans biscuit
150g JW light crystal
75g JW chocolate
75g JW black patent
150g Roasted Barley
50g lightly toasted cacao nibs at mashout
50g organic cocoa powder at mashout
50 g high cocao content choc bar at mashout

Mash: 60 mins 70% efficiency 67 degrees
Boil: 60 minutes SG 1.040 34 liters
Hops: 20g Fuggles (4.75% AA, 45 min.)
30g Kent Goldings (5% AA, 45 min.)

Yeast: Wyeast 1099 Whitbread

2g each CaSO4 and CaCl2 to mash and boil

Secondary:
100g lightly toasted cacao nibs to secondary
1.5 kg cherry puree (probably purchased fresh cherries, home frozen to rupture cells then pureed and either pastuerised or added straight in)
1 litre fresh coconut juice (unsure whether to pastuerise or just run with it or add to mash/boil in first place)
Flesh from young coconut, grated and toasted (drained on absorbent paper)
10g toasted oak chips, soaked for a week in cherry brandy.

Looks like a complicated recipe and may need some ageing for the flavours to meld.

 

[Supra-Jim]

wow, looks a very interesting recipe there, Manticle. Some interesting ideas and hopefully you get a great beer out of it in the end.

Look forward to hearing some updates in the future about this one.

Cheers SJ

 

[Fourstar]

It might not be safe to eat uncooked cocoa beans because of the fermenting process, though if they don't taste like chocolate, and they say they're raw I guess they are . Usually they're roasted before being winnowed.

They are very acrid and bitter when raw. There was a very mild chocolate flavour but nothing like after i roasted them. It was like little individual bitter chocolate bikkies! mmmmm tasty!

They recommend eating the nibs raw, in a nut mix or on muesli. the highest antioxidant food around apparantly.

 

[manticle]

New recipe - need to run the numbers to see colour, gravity etc. The secondary flavour additions can be tweaked depending on how the balance of flavours is going after primary.

Style: Cherry Ripe Porter
Type: All grain
Size: 22 liters
Color: CHECK
Bitterness: 28 IBU
OG: CHECK
FG: 1.015
Alcohol: CHECK

Grain: 2kg JW Ale
3 kg Simpsons Marris Otter
150g Dingemans biscuit
150g JW light crystal
75g JW chocolate
75g JW black patent
150g Roasted Barley


Misc: 20g organic cocoa powder to mash
2 x high cocoa dark choc bars last 10 minutes of mash
50g toasted dried coconut to mash
Juice of one fresh young coconut to mash
50 toasted cacao nibs
2g each CaSo4 and CaCl2 to mash and boil
1g CaCo3 to mash

Secondary: 1 L sour cherry juice
2 kg frozen cherries
1 coconut, home toasted
100g toasted dried coconut
150g toasted cacao nibs

Rack and age 3 months in glass carboy, rack again and bottle with small amount neutral yeast, carbed to 2.0.

Mash: 60 mins 70% efficiency 67 degrees
Boil: 60 minutes SG 1.040 34 liters
Hops: 30g Fuggles (4.75% AA, 60 min.)
30g Kent Goldings (5% AA, 60 min.)

Yeast: Wyeast 1099 Whitbread

Notes: Caramelise approx 2 L first runnings until thick syrup.

 

[Dazza88]

Manticle,

Tasted this one yet?

 

[manticle]

Dear me. Where do I start?


Mash day went well. Lady was interested in processes, very hands-on, cracked all the grain herself, stirred for the batch sparge, etc.

Fermentation also went well. I racked to a glass tapless demijohn onto some sour cherry juice, cherries and more toasted coconut and cacao nibs. So many flavours need time to integrate so I stuck her in the shed for a few months (the beer, not the lady).

I haven't got my siphoning technique down pat yet so I had some issues transferring the beer from the demijohn to a tertiary vessel in which I was going to cold condition for a couple of weeks before bottling.

After having several tantrums involving hurling various bits of tubing around the garden, I finally got the beer into the vessel and into the fridge. Tastes good so far.

A few days later and there is a lovely film growing on top of the beer - maybe from my piss poor siphoning efforts.

Not willing to disappoint the lady nor give up on such a labour of love, I transferred again to a pot thinking to pasteurise.

Of course 72 odd degrees would be ample to remove most things but nob head here wanted to be super sure and brought the whole thing to a rolling boil for about 10-15 minutes.

As I was transferring into a no chill cube I noticed the wonderful smell of ethanol in the air and realised I had probably de-alcoholised our lovely beer.

Still not willing to give up, I now have the cube sitting safely (and the flavours are great) with the aim of brewing a similar recipe again (must involve the lady) with no transfers and no super long secondary and blending the two.

Recipe is a winner from taste tests but not having an idiot brewing it would probably help.

 

[mika]

More interested in the cherry side of this beer. How did you add the cherry's, as per your initial concept above ? And how cherry-ish is it ?
Interested in making a cherry beer, but haven't seen a lot of info on the amount of cherry's used. Seems to be a pretty wide variation between brewers.

 

[manticle]

2 Litres of sour cherry juice (preserve free etc) and about 2 kg of cherries in secondary.

Added a further 2 kg of cherries after some ageing but also added extras of the other flavours to try and hit a balance.

Cherry flavour noticeable but not over the top. Take out the choc and coconut and perception would increase.

The juice went straight in. The cherries were frozen, then pitted, then soaked in startsan solution (didn't want to pasteurise), then chucked in.

 

[mika]

Did you use any pectinase (sp ?)

 

[manticle]

No.

 

[Wolfy]

The juice went straight in. The cherries were frozen, then pitted, then soaked in startsan solution (didn't want to pasteurise), then chucked in.

It may pay to check how True South's Cherry Bomb was brewed and emulate that process, I think some the details are floating around here somewhere.

 

[manticle]

Dear me. Where do I start?


Mash day went well. Lady was interested in processes, very hands-on, cracked all the grain herself, stirred for the batch sparge, etc.

Fermentation also went well. I racked to a glass tapless demijohn onto some sour cherry juice, cherries and more toasted coconut and cacao nibs. So many flavours need time to integrate so I stuck her in the shed for a few months (the beer, not the lady).

I haven't got my siphoning technique down pat yet so I had some issues transferring the beer from the demijohn to a tertiary vessel in which I was going to cold condition for a couple of weeks before bottling.

After having several tantrums involving hurling various bits of tubing around the garden, I finally got the beer into the vessel and into the fridge. Tastes good so far.

A few days later and there is a lovely film growing on top of the beer - maybe from my piss poor siphoning efforts.

Not willing to disappoint the lady nor give up on such a labour of love, I transferred again to a pot thinking to pasteurise.

Of course 72 odd degrees would be ample to remove most things but nob head here wanted to be super sure and brought the whole thing to a rolling boil for about 10-15 minutes.

As I was transferring into a no chill cube I noticed the wonderful smell of ethanol in the air and realised I had probably de-alcoholised our lovely beer.

Still not willing to give up, I now have the cube sitting safely (and the flavours are great) with the aim of brewing a similar recipe again (must involve the lady) with no transfers and no super long secondary and blending the two.

Recipe is a winner from taste tests but not having an idiot brewing it would probably help.

I recently tasted a tiny sample from the cube and it was delicious so I'll be bottling the cubed version with some fresh yeast this weekend and re-brewing this either this weekend or next.

I reckon I probably didn't de-alcoholise the lot - probably just knocked a few points off it and the aging in bulk has helped it along. Got definite coconut from my small sample, less cherry.

 

[sim]

I reckon I probably didn't de-alcoholise the lot - probably just knocked a few points off it and the aging in bulk has helped it along. Got definite coconut from my small sample, less cherry.

Hey Manticle, do you happen to have a refractometre and a hydrometre perchance? i'd be interested to see how much alcohol you lost by boiling. ie hydro and refract to give "supposed SG" minus actuall SG = how many gravity points difference, then convert that into the potential alcohol that has been lost.