Hazey Beer - Not Chill Haze

[Steve@PMF82]

Where did you buy that if you don't mind me asking, did a quick google search and got everything but :blink:

Here you go guys, aprrox 800 tests in a bottle, $7.50, this by the way is the only brand i would recomend using in regards to these test kits.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/PH-TEST-KIT-FLAIRFO...=item2ea61754d4

My water - rainwater - is quite soft, but it is alkaline 8+ PH, but it is easily lowered with very small amounts of acids.
So i make the assumption that i have some low to mid range levels of carbonates with no to very little of the actual minerals i need for brewing.

So when using Pils and wheat to make a light beer, there are no darker grains to help bring my mash PH down to the right
level. Which means poor conversion of starches and at higher temps (mash out) this will draw out even more unwanted starches, resulting in hazey beer at any temp.

So i use Calc Chlor and Calc Sulph in my brewing water, i am still very much experimenting with different amounts, depending on the beer, i then pre adjust my PH with Phosphoric acid - depending on the grain bill.

A lot also depends on how much water i mash with as well. I was have probs doing full volume BIAB around 5 / K - but if i mashed thicker 2.7 then did a dunk sparge i could get away with a lot more - this was before i looked into adjusting my brewing water.

 

[Acasta]

Sulphate 310ppm
Late hopping (not severe 1g per L at flame out)
TF Marris Otter floor malted

other than that I'm completely bemused, I dont believe sulphate causes haziness so by process of elimination I'm going with the late hops (most likely cause IMO) or the malt (undermodified?). There was no flavour issue, it actually snuck into 4th place in Beerfest. Haziness is not clearing with age so far at 80 days since bottled.

Interesting. Im wondering whats going on with my conversion now. However, wherever i add calcium sulphate it lowers my efficiency. Did you find this this?
It COULD be hop haze, but this stuff is REALLY hazey. Almost non see through.

My water - rainwater - is quite soft, but it is alkaline 8+ PH, but it is easily lowered with very small amounts of acids.
So i make the assumption that i have some low to mid range levels of carbonates with no to very little of the actual minerals i need for brewing.

Which means poor conversion of starches and at higher temps (mash out) this will draw out even more unwanted starches, resulting in hazey beer at any temp.

So i use Calc Chlor and Calc Sulph in my brewing water, i am still very much experimenting with different amounts, depending on the beer, i then pre adjust my PH with Phosphoric acid - depending on the grain bill.

So how would one calculate the change in PH caused by the malt they are using? Because it sounds like you need to adjust the water, then add the grist and it will be easier to achieve a good PH.
I have a tank ok rainwater, but i have no idea if it'd be any good for brewing with. I figure its pretty dirty.
So you use those two salts for a balence and the acid to adjust the PH?


Has anyone else noticed negative effect of calcium sulphate (gypsum) on their efficiency or brew?

 

[Steve@PMF82]

Palmer - Online " While there is not any surefire way to predict the exact pH, there are empirical methods and calculations that can put you in the ballpark, just like for hop IBU calculations. To estimate your base-malt-only mash pH, you will need the calcium, magnesium and alkalinity ion concentrations from your local water utility report. Unfortunately, you rarely want to brew a base-malt-only beer.

As i said before i started out seeing what my PH was after mashing in with the strips, i now have an educated guess (idea) about how different grain bills will end up when mashed with the water i use after adjusting my PH before hand and adding some salts.
From what ive read a little too low of the ideal range (5.2 -5.4) is better than too high, thats when you get the unconverted starches causing starch haze.

I also refer to this for a basic gist on malts and PH

The third factor in determining mash pH is malt colour dark malts reduce pH significantly. This is due to acidic compounds, including melanoidins, formed at their higher kilning temperatures. The following figures from Noonan show that the darker the malt, the lower the mash pH :

Pale malt: pH 5.7 6.0
Vienna / Munich: pH 5.5 5.7
Crystal: pH 4.5 4.8
Chocolate: pH 4.3 4.5
Black: pH 4.0 4.2

Depending on their proportion in the grist, coloured malts may be sufficient to give proper mash acidity.

Whats your rainwater stored in? even if its a bit dirty it does not matter, just run it through a britta filter or even just a really fine tea strainer which is all i do these days to make sure there are no chunky bits going into my brew water, it all gets boiled anyway so no worries in that department.
Rain water is natures own distilled water, so its picks up lots of things real easy, Co2 from atmosphere, if its stored in a concrete tank it will leach the limstone from that, which can make the water a bit alkaline, i have plastic and concrete they all get mixed around so i figure this contributes to my high PH.

edit: oh yeah i have noticed not much change in my efficiency since i started using salts, just taste and clarity, if anything i get a couple % higher here and there.

 

[Acasta]

So basicly its an educated guessing game? haha. What would you bring your PH down to prior to adding malts for a straw to pale coloured beer? It would make sense that the darker brews im making are working well from the malt info you've shown.
My tank water is in plastic. Only thing is its cold and will take longer to heat then hot tap water (around 55C)

What would happen if the PH was too low? Could that also cause low eff and haze? Im honestly really confused as to why the gypsum has lowered my eff by such a large number.

 

[Steve@PMF82]

From what i have read, if the PH of mash ends up a little low the activity of the enzymes that convert the starches are affected a lot less than if its on the higher side.

a mash pH in the range 5.2 - 5.4 (Hind, 1950). This range, first of all, is favourable to enzymatic activity..the enzymes activities do not decrease by much if the pH levels are more acid, but there is typically a sharp decrease if the pH becomes more basic (alkaline) :

Amylase Activity at 60oC


PH Activity (%)

4.8 - 98
5.0 - 99
5.2 - 100
5.4 - 95
5.8 - 85
6.2 - 65

I recently made a low - mid strength lager, Pils , 5% light munich, 1% caramunich
My starting PH for my brew water was inbetween 6.5 - 7 .
I only used some calc chlor for salts, i am very happy with how this has turned out, even while it was fermenting it was clearer than some of my earlier beers after months of bottle conditioning.
I also mashed for 75min and boiled for 90

 

[WitWonder]

a mash pH in the range 5.2 - 5.4 (Hind, 1950). This range, first of all, is favourable to enzymatic activity..the enzymes activities do not decrease by much if the pH levels are more acid, but there is typically

Geez, if I quoted a reference from 1950 in a uni assignment I would have been laughed off campus

I've also noticed a number of my beers hazy recently but have associated it with a change in equipment from a 40L batch to a 80L batch (new mash tun) though the wort always seems very clear during recirc. I am thinking it's a PH issue...

 

[geoffd]

Interesting. Im wondering whats going on with my conversion now. However, wherever i add calcium sulphate it lowers my efficiency. Did you find this this?
It COULD be hop haze, but this stuff is REALLY hazey. Almost non see through.

This is what I got, extremely hazy or cloudy. My yeast was Saf-04
brewhouse efficiency was excellent. however attenuation was fairly low, only 65.6% from a 67 degree mash, I would have expected low to mid 70's, though I have only used S-04 once before & that was one of my very early all grain beers about 4 years ago. Perhaps the TF Marris Otter was undermodified, I mashed for 90 mins so it aint for a lack of conversion time. would give a plausable theory into both lower attenuation & the haze.

Regarding Ph in Melbourne water, I generally add 120g Acidulated to a pale lager maybe 50g to an amber, that's in 5 to 5.5kg grist at 2.5L/kg water ratio, I have settled on these levels after testing a few batches with the Ph meter. I dont bother testing every batch & because the water is so soft, I dont care if it running 6.5 or 8 from the tap for the mash water.
I do add a few drops of lactic acid in the sparge water to get to Ph 6

Calium carbonate to a stout, brown: no Ph adjustment.

Is it possible Cal Sulphate is lowering your Ph too far? I would get a ph meter / papers & test.
I generally find if a beer is too acidified, it comes through as completly cutting the malt & making it taste thin, dry/sharp & lifeless. looses that yummy full roundness of flavour.

The only other thing that springs to mind is some kind of infection, though I couldnt taste anything abnormal. I'll drink one tonight & take a photo of it.

 

[Nick JD]

... then 1 week CC and sometimes gelatin.

Were your OP batches both gelatined?

I recently had a situation where I added the gelatine slightly before FG.

The beer never cleared. I'm not sure of the process or what's happening, but it never clears.

 

[Acasta]

From what i have read, if the PH of mash ends up a little low the activity of the enzymes that convert the starches are affected a lot less than if its on the higher side.

Regarding Ph in Melbourne water, I generally add 120g Acidulated to a pale lager maybe 50g to an amber,

Is it possible Cal Sulphate is lowering your Ph too far? I would get a ph meter / papers & test.
I generally find if a beer is too acidified, it comes through as completly cutting the malt & making it taste thin, dry/sharp & lifeless. looses that yummy full roundness of flavour.

It is definetly possible and has crossed my mind that its too low, however, Beer4U was saying that it may not be a terrible thing if its too low. I guess i really just need to do some sames with a test kit and get my shit together. Without actually looking at the PH levels, all the help you guys give me are just theories. I'll get some PH stuff (iodine and PH testing) and get back to this thread sometime soon.

Were your OP batches both gelatined?

Thats also possible, but some times i gelatine and sometime not. Its really random as i forgot about it sometimes haha. I could be on occasion that i don't let it ferment fully.
But ill definitely wait till its fully fermented (3 days same reading) before i gel and see what happens.

 

[Acasta]

maybe this weekend ill do a cascade - pils smash half batch on the old stove and see what happens.

Things i need?
Iodine
PH measurement
what kind of acids/salts should I use?

P.S. Just took a photo, this was brewed on 24/11/10, so its been in bottle over 3 months. This bottle in particular was in the fridge for about 2 weeks.
This is a particularly bad example. It looks the exact same when its warm.

 

[MHB]

Looks like the most common causes of haze have been covered but lets tick them off: -
Chill haze Probably not
Starch Haze - again probably not
Bad water chemistry iffy, frankly thats about the worst case of turbidity Ive seen and I doubt it would be that bad if every one of the above was out to buggery.

So some of the other causes
Yeast Haze a badly mutated or contaminated (wild Yeast) house yeast might look that bad but I think the flavour would change to.
Infection its a possibility but you would expect other symptoms as well if an infection was that bad.
Protein Haze this one is a possible. You need to look at your boil vigour and duration, the quality of your trub separation (I dont mean hop debris the protein part of the trub).
To minimise protein haze
No longer than a 10 minute rest at or around 50oC
Longer mash time at saccharifying temperatures
Not too hot a sparge or mash out (under 78oC)
A good intensive boil evaporating at least 10% wort volume
A good whirlpool and trub separation - dont be greedy! Be prepared to leave enough wort in the kettle to avoid picking up trub.
Hope you find the answer
MHB

 

[Acasta]

Starch Haze - again probably not
Bad water chemistry – iffy, frankly that’s about the worst case of turbidity I’ve seen and I doubt it would be that bad if every one of the above was out to buggery.
Could bad water chemistry cause the starch haze? ie. PH not corrert and an incomplete conversion.

So some of the other causes
Yeast Haze – a badly mutated or contaminated (wild Yeast) house yeast might look that bad but I think the flavour would change to.
Infection – it’s a possibility but you would expect other symptoms as well if an infection was that bad.

Protein Haze – this one is a possible. You need to look at your boil vigour and duration, the quality of your trub separation (I don’t mean hop debris – the protein part of the trub).
To minimise protein haze
I use an immersion chiller and take all the wort from the top untill i start to see the cold break, when i stop. I have recently started refrigerating this trub and separating it, however i have gotten haze before this.
I find it quite difficult to get a good trub cone in the bottom no matter how well i whirlpool since i've been chilling in the kettle.

No longer than a 10 minute rest at or around 50oC
Im currently not doing a protein rest at all, so would the inclusion of this help?

Longer mash time at saccharifying temperatures
Definitely a good idea. Im going to include iodine tests.

Not too hot a sparge or mash out (under 78oC)
This could also possibly be a reason for it. I tend to aim to sparge at 80C

A good intensive boil evaporating at least 10% wort volume
I use BBQ burners and i get a decent boil doing, i think its about 14% evap not at full. This last batch (that i just posted about on Wednesday) was full on the burners the whole time.

A good whirlpool and trub separation - don’t be greedy! Be prepared to leave enough wort in the kettle to avoid picking up trub.
Like i said, im finding it hard to get a seperation with the in kettle chilled wort, however, there is a clear seperation. Im a big of a stickler for only picking up clear wort into my fermenter.

Hope you find the answer
Me too!
MHB

What about mashing out?

Thanks.

 

[MHB]

It really sounds like you are doing most things right, Mash Out and Sparge were sort of clumped in together and if you have an accurate thermometer and arent taking the grain bed over 80oC that should be fine.
If the wort is bright (clear) at the end of the boil it isnt starch.

Rapidly heading into F-t if I know country, very hard to tell without actually being there. Can you get another experienced AG brewer along for a brew day fresh set of eyes and all that, they might spot something that youre missing. Maybe take a sample to your local club and get some considered opinion, try the guys at G&G they know their stuff.

Protein Haze still looks like the most likely cause.
Not being factious but how good is your thermometer, if its a mechanical or an electronic one is it well calibrated, if you havent got 1 good glass lab thermometer that you can trust that might be a good place to start.
All the best
MHB

 

[Acasta]

It really sounds like you are doing most things right, Mash Out and Sparge were sort of clumped in together and if you have an accurate thermometer and aren’t taking the grain bed over 80oC that should be fine.
If the wort is bright (clear) at the end of the boil it isn’t starch.

Rapidly heading into “F-t if I know” country, very hard to tell without actually being there. Can you get another experienced AG brewer along for a brew day – fresh set of eyes and all that, they might spot something that you’re missing. Maybe take a sample to your local club and get some considered opinion, try the guys at G&G they know their stuff.

Protein Haze still looks like the most likely cause.
Not being factious but how good is your thermometer, if it’s a mechanical or an electronic one is it well calibrated, if you haven’t got 1 good glass lab thermometer that you can trust that might be a good place to start.
All the best
MHB

Well yeah, most of the time its clear upon draining from the kettle. So if its not starch haze, would that mean that all my PH issues are irrelevant in this problem? Not in brewing, just this issue.
I don't know any AGers personaly, i might have to bring it into a store.. dunno.
My thermometer is a digital and i got it from dicksmith. I have nothing to calibrate it against, i tbh, i don't know if its %100 accurate.

What are the main causes of protein haze?
You mentioned before some remadies are, protien rest, longer sacc rest, and a cooler sparge. As well as a good wort seperation (which im currently doing). Oh, and a longer boil maybe? I currently do 60min, ill change it to 90.
I understand a starch haze is caused by not all of the sugars being converted in

 

[proudscum]

Well yeah, most of the time its clear upon draining from the kettle. So if its not starch haze, would that mean that all my PH issues are irrelevant in this problem? Not in brewing, just this issue.
I don't know any AGers personaly, i might have to bring it into a store.. dunno.
My thermometer is a digital and i got it from dicksmith. I have nothing to calibrate it against, i tbh, i don't know if its %100 accurate.

What are the main causes of protein haze?
You mentioned before some remadies are, protien rest, longer sacc rest, and a cooler sparge. As well as a good wort seperation (which im currently doing). Oh, and a longer boil maybe? I currently do 60min, ill change it to 90.
I understand a starch haze is caused by not all of the sugars being converted in

You could try to calibrate it with 2 things putting it in to boiling water =100 oC
Putting ice into a glass(full of ice) with some water which will take you close to 0 oC

 

[geoffd]

Well the haziness has improved a very small bit in the last few weeks, I'm still siding with undermodified malt as the culprit.

 

[Acasta]

Well the haziness has improved a very small bit in the last few weeks, I'm still siding with undermodified malt as the culprit.

View attachment 44739View attachment 44740

Thats not terrible, i've made a few like that and some crystal clear. I wouldn't even mind if my ambers and such were like that. it just kills me seeing the pales and straws so hazey.

 

[geoffd]

Thats not terrible, i've made a few like that and some crystal clear. I wouldn't even mind if my ambers and such were like that. it just kills me seeing the pales and straws so hazey.

that is a pale ale, ESB of 9.5 SRM
I have a fairly slow run off with my lauter & normally get completely clear beer.
normally I can see my fingernail perfectly clearly through a beer, unless it's a stout.

 

[Nick JD]

Do you do any sparging of your BIABag? And are your sparged runnings cloudy, if you do?

 

[geoffd]

Do you do any sparging of your BIABag? And are your sparged runnings cloudy, if you do?

nope, gravity system, false bottom. have never BedIAB

anyway's turning off the cpu, have a good weekend, over & out.