Hazey Beer - Not Chill Haze

[Acasta]

Do you do any sparging of your BIABag? And are your sparged runnings cloudy, if you do?

I do, and the runnings looked the exact same. I might take a sample of my sparge and put it aside next to a mash sample.

 

[MHB]

Well the haziness has improved a very small bit in the last few weeks, I'm still siding with undermodified malt as the culprit.

View attachment 44739View attachment 44740

For malt to undermodified enough to cause the problems you are talking about, it would be showing a lot of "Steely Tips" the name comes from the feeling you get when you chew a sample, it's like chewing a mouthful of ball bearings.

Very noticeable, if you malt is undermodified just adjust your mash regime accordingly, in truth I have had 1 bag of malt out of god knows how many tons (a UK Xal) that showed steely tips, I strongly suspect that your looking in the wrong direction, if there was a delivery of undermodified MO getting around we would be hearing about it very loudly in all likelihood.

MHB

 

[argon]

well... here's my entry into the hazy beer club. Filtered and kegged (with keg hops) Monday and first sample taken this morning.


Very turbid, could hardly call it a haze. Normally after filtering i get diamond bright beer. I really wouldn't be all that upset with the haze, other than this is supposed to be for the BABBs mini-comp, so rightfully a little pissed. My own fault though, been putting off getting some ph testing gear and looking for full conversion.

It's a pretty heavily hopped IPA (90IBU) and has 11%Carawheat and 11% Oats in the grain bill (which is where i think i got the haze from) Plus looking back at my notes, i forwent the Gypsum, which in (cloudy) hindsight was a bad idea.

 

[Acasta]

well... here's my entry into the hazy beer club. Filtered and kegged (with keg hops) Monday and first sample taken this morning.
View attachment 44858

Very turbid, could hardly call it a haze. Normally after filtering i get diamond bright beer. I really wouldn't be all that upset with the haze, other than this is supposed to be for the BABBs mini-comp, so rightfully a little pissed. My own fault though, been putting off getting some ph testing gear and looking for full conversion.

It's a pretty heavily hopped IPA (90IBU) and has 11%Carawheat and 11% Oats in the grain bill (which is where i think i got the haze from) Plus looking back at my notes, i forwent the Gypsum, which in (cloudy) hindsight was a bad idea.

Thats a bugger mate. Really sucks when you don't get the great beer you planned for.
Good luck with figuring it out, or at least never doing it again haha.

 

[argon]

yeah it's really dissapointing when it came out like that... oh well with the appearance only being worth 3 points, 47 is a decent score i 'spose B)

 

[malt_shovel]

Looks like the most common causes of haze have been covered but let's tick them off: -
Chill haze Probably not
Starch Haze - again probably not
Bad water chemistry iffy, frankly that's about the worst case of turbidity I've seen and I doubt it would be that bad if every one of the above was out to buggery.

So some of the other causes
Yeast Haze a badly mutated or contaminated (wild Yeast) house yeast might look that bad but I think the flavour would change to.
Infection it's a possibility but you would expect other symptoms as well if an infection was that bad.
Protein Haze this one is a possible. You need to look at your boil vigour and duration, the quality of your trub separation (I don't mean hop debris the protein part of the trub).
To minimise protein haze
No longer than a 10 minute rest at or around 50oC
Longer mash time at saccharifying temperatures
Not too hot a sparge or mash out (under 78oC)
A good intensive boil evaporating at least 10% wort volume
A good whirlpool and trub separation - don't be greedy! Be prepared to leave enough wort in the kettle to avoid picking up trub.
Hope you find the answer
MHB

MHB, can you elaborate a bit more on the protein haze situation?

I am just getting into the more chemistry/science parts of this hobby and was under the impression that chill haze is a form of colloidal instability that is formed from both proteins (malt origins) and polyphenols (either from hops or malt) combining/bonding into colloids that become visible. So from my basic lit study, chill and protein haze are one and the same. I figure once the bonds are sufficiently strong, an increase in temperature doesn't break the colloids apart, leaving a permanent haze. Can you give a bit more info on what you mean by protein haze as compared to chill haze?

Thanks in advance

:icon_chickcheers:

 

[geoffd]

MHB, can you elaborate a bit more on the protein haze situation?

I am just getting into the more chemistry/science parts of this hobby and was under the impression that chill haze is a form of colloidal instability that is formed from both proteins (malt origins) and polyphenols (either from hops or malt) combining/bonding into colloids that become visible. So from my basic lit study, chill and protein haze are one and the same. I figure once the bonds are sufficiently strong, an increase in temperature doesn't break the colloids apart, leaving a permanent haze. Can you give a bit more info on what you mean by protein haze as compared to chill haze?

Thanks in advance

:icon_chickcheers:

Chill haze is proteins expanding in cold,
Protein haze, an example of this would be the haze from wheat beer, not chill related.
also caused by a bad grain bed or fast running on lauter where runnings arent clear.

By the way I forgot to say thank you to MHB for your diagnostic effort, I dont believe mine was any of the listed brewing faults you suggested & the yeast was a new dry yeast: S-04

It would have been 90min 67degrees + 77 mash out & a 90 min boil too.
Mine was almost as murky as Argon's early on.

Is protein haze a possibility from TF Marris Otter? this is what led to me thinking along the undermodified line. Without having a yardstick to compare it against it I did think the beer tastes slightly floury / starchy, but this might be a normal characteristic of the malt.

 

[Steve@PMF82]

Here is another for the Hazey club.
Crisp MO and 5% crystal, mash 66C for 60min, mashout 76C, boil 60min
Wort was clear going into fermenter, all break was left in pot.
Wyeast 1968 - as soon as it got going it looked turbid - 12 days ferment
CC @ 1C for 3 days , still very turbid going into bottles.
4 weeks later this is what it looks like @ 11C
Tastes ok, aftertaste is enjoyable, i am pretty sure there is no infection.
maybe next time i need to do the 90 boil thing, who knows.

 

[Acasta]

Having trouble finding iodine or PH stuff anywhere local. LHBS doesn't have them, nor does the chemist. Ill try a pool shop tomorrow.

Anyone tried to use iodopher to test for staches? I just did a quick good and an american site, some people posting that they have used it successfully.

 

[geoffd]

Having trouble finding iodine or PH stuff anywhere local. LHBS doesn't have them, nor does the chemist. Ill try a pool shop tomorrow.

Anyone tried to use iodopher to test for staches? I just did a quick good and an american site, some people posting that they have used it successfully.

I have a bottle I dont use & you can keep, PM me

 

[argon]

well... here's my entry into the hazy beer club. Filtered and kegged (with keg hops) Monday and first sample taken this morning.
View attachment 44858

Very turbid, could hardly call it a haze. Normally after filtering i get diamond bright beer. I really wouldn't be all that upset with the haze, other than this is supposed to be for the BABBs mini-comp, so rightfully a little pissed. My own fault though, been putting off getting some ph testing gear and looking for full conversion.

It's a pretty heavily hopped IPA (90IBU) and has 11%Carawheat and 11% Oats in the grain bill (which is where i think i got the haze from) Plus looking back at my notes, i forwent the Gypsum, which in (cloudy) hindsight was a bad idea.

Same beer, second keg of double batch... a few months later in the kegertor at 3C. Hard to believe how much this has cleared in time... looks a totally different beer. Much happier now.

 

[Acasta]

Same beer, second keg of double batch... a few months later in the kegertor at 3C. Hard to believe how much this has cleared in time... looks a totally different beer. Much happier now.

Nice one, I had a beer do something similar, but the first one I posted never recovered.

 

[argon]

Nice one, I had a beer do something similar, but the first one I posted never recovered.

Yeah i'm pretty happy with it now... the flavour has really improved... not sure if it's the bitterness rounding out, or what. But it's much more palatable and smoother than before. I really must endevour to age more of my beers... i'm always pleased by a bit of aging.

 

[Steve@PMF82]

Here is another for the Hazey club.
Crisp MO and 5% crystal, mash 66C for 60min, mashout 76C, boil 60min
Wort was clear going into fermenter, all break was left in pot.
Wyeast 1968 - as soon as it got going it looked turbid - 12 days ferment
CC @ 1C for 3 days , still very turbid going into bottles.
4 weeks later this is what it looks like @ 11C
Tastes ok, aftertaste is enjoyable, i am pretty sure there is no infection.
maybe next time i need to do the 90 boil thing, who knows.



View attachment 44877

Well i may as well update mine as well.

Had this one tonight, been about 3 months now, in the fridge the whole time.
Much clearer, the taste has improved out of site, everything has smoothed out.

Pours with a much bigger head and holds it for most of the glass.
I know not all beers age well but this one certainly did.

Picture is not the best but good enough.

 

[Dave70]

Just curious if you guys are using any wheat malt as part of the grain bill? Even as little as 3% to help head retention.

I've had a Belgian strong sitting at 1 deg for just on 3 weeks and plan to bottle this weekend. I'm simply working off the theory that the only consistently clear beers I've knocked out have been lagers that have copped a similar treatment. Just for once, I'd like an ale to be all sparkly and bright.

 

[a1149913]

Protease rest 50 - 54C ?
Protein degradation via a proteolytic rest plays many roles: production of free-amino nitrogen (FAN) for yeast nutrition, freeing of small proteins from larger proteins for foam stability in the finished product, and reduction of haze-causing proteins for easier filtration and increased beer clarity. In all-malt beers, the malt already provides enough protein for good head retention, and the brewer needs to worry more about more FAN being produced than the yeast can metabolize, leading to off flavors. The haze causing proteins are also more prevalent in all-malt beers, and the brewer must strike a balance between breaking down these proteins, and limiting FAN production.