Grain To Water? And Ideas!

[manticle]

No problem

I just think some advice can be overwhelming and sometimes too technical. I was attempting to give advice on baby steps without Paul having to invest significant dollars into a full mash setup. Paul indicated he was given grain to experiment, let him experiment with with tools already in the kitchen.

I agree with absolutely with the idea of learning basics and proceeding with the equipment one has on hand until the fundamentals are grasped.

Fundamentally however you can't simply replace 1kg of sugar with 1 kg of crystal malt (or even mashed base malt) which is what you seemed to be suggesting.

Even forgetting how overpowering that amount of crystal would be in a brew, it just doesn't work that way.

 

[peter.brandon]

I agree with absolutely with the idea of learning basics and proceeding with the equipment one has on hand until the fundamentals are grasped.

Fundamentally however you can't simply replace 1kg of sugar with 1 kg of crystal malt (or even mashed base malt) which is what you seemed to be suggesting.

Even forgetting how overpowering that amount of crystal would be in a brew, it just doesn't work that way.

Agreed Manticle

Yes there is less fermentibles in 1kg of grain than 1kg of dextrose, yes i forgot to mention to boil the wort for 1hr, yes 1kg of crystal is too much.

How about we let Paul "experiment" as we all did and get off our soap boxes.

 

[rclemmett]

I agree with absolutely with the idea of learning basics and proceeding with the equipment one has on hand until the fundamentals are grasped.

Fundamentally however you can't simply replace 1kg of sugar with 1 kg of crystal malt (or even mashed base malt) which is what you seemed to be suggesting.

Even forgetting how overpowering that amount of crystal would be in a brew, it just doesn't work that way.

What about 2kg of base malt?

 

[Screwtop]

I would advise against the above.

Certainly use some crystal steeped along the lines of the method above.

However you will not come close to replacing 1 kg of sucrose, dextrose or maltose with 1 kg of crystal. You may however end up with a low alcohol brew that is too sweet, thick or cloying.

Steep grain? Yes. Replace [some] sugar with malt extract? yes (slightly more needed for equivalent weight).
Replace equal weights sugar with equal weights of crystal grain? no.

There was a thread on here recently about a sweet, syrupy brew which incorporated 900g of crystal. General connsensus was that that is way too much crystal.

I'd tend to use no more than 500g per 23 litre batch, generally I'd aim for about half that.

Sorry Plyers.

Watch the amount of crystal/cara malt as Manticle says. Liquid malt extract is low in fermentability which is why kit recipes call for the addition of some Dex or Sugar, this helps to increase fermentability and produce a drier beer. Cara/Crystal malt is a way of reducing fermentability and adding body/sweetness in all grain wort. So adding Crystal to a Kit using malt extract will further reduce fermentability. It will add colour and flavour so is good in that respect, but some sucrose (sugar/dextrose) as well will in turn return some fermentability. Brewing is all about balance, this is why we have ingredients that alter fermentability. Hops are used to balance bitterness against sweetness left in the finished beer, so a low finishing beer requires less bitterness, look at the various beer styles for some examples of this balancing act. Keep your Crystal to 7% or less of your fermentables until you have a good understanding of brewing and balance. Beer with a sweet finish and cideryness from kit yeast and high fermentation temps can be a real turnoff.

Cheers,

Screwy

 

[glaab]

this xmas my parter got me a coopers brew kit which is going very well!

well i have bottled my first coppers brew today!

that's a bit of a worry, 5 days in the fermenter, did you check your final gravity? what was it? was it the same for 3 days? what temp did you ferment at? have you got the fermentation temp under control? having your fermenter temp under control is probably something you should look at b4 you worry about trying AG. Before you go AG you might want to have a go at extract brewing first if kits are too easy for you. Try brewing Niells centenarillo ale extract maybe [or DSGA extract] and steep 300g of your crystal while your'e at it. Trying to go from having a Coopers kit one week to full AG might be overly ambitious, you're gonna run into a lot of hurdles like cracking the grain for a start, then you need a hlt, mash tun, thermometers, 10gal kettle, burner , hopstrainer, chiller etc etc etc

 

[manticle]

How about we let Paul "experiment" as we all did and get off our soap boxes.

Not sure who's supposed to be on a soap box. Paul asked for advice and has been given some. I'm doing my best to make sure he doesn't get bad advice before he's even begun. If that's a soap box then I'm glad a few people stood on theirs when I first started out and stopped me doing some silly things (or at least explained why they were silly).

If he'd followed what you suggested in the first place he might have got sweet vaguely beer flavoured syrup sitting at ~2% abv. There's no point starting an experiment off like that and making your first brew like that might be enough to put one off the hobby completely.

@Rob2 - There are more sugars in converted base malt so yes you can replace simple sugars with base malt. That's kind of topsy turvy though because what you are doing when you add sugar to a kit is substituting simple sugars in place of the maltose you'd get from grain.

Also mashing 2kg of base malt is more complicated than steeping some specialty grains (not vastly more complicated but less simple than chucking them in a pot on the stovetop)

 

[rclemmett]

Not sure who's supposed to be on a soap box. Paul asked for advice and has been given some. I'm doing my best to make sure he doesn't get bad advice before he's even begun. If that's a soap box then I'm glad a few people stood on theirs when I first started out and stopped me doing some silly things (or at least explained why they were silly).

If he'd followed what you suggested in the first place he might have got sweet vaguely beer flavoured syrup sitting at ~2% abv. There's no point starting an experiment off like that and making your first brew like that might be enough to put one off the hobby completely.

@Rob2 - There are more sugars in converted base malt so yes you can replace simple sugars with base malt. That's kind of topsy turvy though because what you are doing when you add sugar to a kit is substitute simple sugars in place of the maltose you'd get from grain.

Also mashing 2kg of base malt is more complicated than steeping some specialty grains (not vastly more complicated but less simple than chucking them in a pot on the stovetop)

Mashing 2kg of grain for a kit is a good step into AG, its called a partial, and will taste better than 1kg of sugar because it has something called flavour.

The gist of what Plyers is suggesting is sound, as it can be done on the stovetop.

It is as simple as chucking some grains in a pot on the stovetop and checking the temperature regularly.

 

[peter.brandon]

Not sure who's supposed to be on a soap box. Paul asked for advice and has been given some. I'm doing my best to make sure he doesn't get bad advice before he's even begun. If that's a soap box then I'm glad a few people stood on theirs when I first started out and stopped me doing some silly things (or at least explained why they were silly).

If he'd followed what you suggested in the first place he might have got sweet vaguely beer flavoured syrup sitting at ~2% abv. There's no point starting an experiment off like that and making your first brew like that might be enough to put one off the hobby completely.

@Rob2 - There are more sugars in converted base malt so yes you can replace simple sugars with base malt. That's kind of topsy turvy though because what you are doing when you add sugar to a kit is substituting simple sugars in place of the maltose you'd get from grain.

Also mashing 2kg of base malt is more complicated than steeping some specialty grains (not vastly more complicated but less simple than chucking them in a pot on the stovetop)

Manticle,

I think it is great there are so many people out there to help. Yes he would have got a sweeter beer (bad example on my behalf i should have stated a base malt - my bad). All i was trying to do was give the guy an example of how he could use the grain he just got for xmas, yes maybe a bad example but i was trying to illustrate that he could do partial beers on his stove top with the grain, that is all.

My soap box remark was not directed at just you manticle but all of us on AHB. As a relatively new member I have found many a question from a newbie been answered with information way in excess of the question thus confusing the newbie and in some instances it seems it is just a chance for the commenter to "stand on their soap box".

This is not aimed to offend and appologise if it does.

 

[pauldidge]

that's a bit of a worry, 5 days in the fermenter, did you check your final gravity? what was it? was it the same for 3 days? what temp did you ferment at? have you got the fermentation temp under control? having your fermenter temp under control is probably something you should look at b4 you worry about trying AG. Before you go AG you might want to have a go at extract brewing first if kits are too easy for you. Try brewing Niells centenarillo ale extract maybe [or DSGA extract] and steep 300g of your crystal while your'e at it. Trying to go from having a Coopers kit one week to full AG might be overly ambitious, you're gonna run into a lot of hurdles like cracking the grain for a start, then you need a hlt, mash tun, thermometers, 10gal kettle, burner , hopstrainer, chiller etc etc etc

well the final gravity was 1.010 which is what the cooper intsructions said and the temp was about 23c, the bubbles in the air lock had stopped pretty much and in the instructions it says to keep it between 21-27c so i cant see where i have gone wrong? as i have just followed the cooper instrution book.

 

[manticle]

Mashing 2kg of grain for a kit is a good step into AG, its called a partial, and will taste better than 1kg of sugar because it has something called flavour.

The gist of what Plyers is suggesting is sound, as it can be done on the stovetop.

It is as simple as chucking some grains in a pot on the stovetop and checking the temperature regularly.

I know what a partial is. I know how simple it can be. I used to do a lot of 3kg partial mashes on the stove top and in a $10 esky with limited equipment.

I'm not suggesting it can't be done. If anyone knows how to make beer using the most limited equipment around, it's me. However having made some basic flaws in my early days (and probably still today) I think it's worth pointing out the distinction between a partial mash (where you convert and extract the sugar that forms all or part of your fermentable sugars) and a steep (where you are dealing with grains that have starches already converted but little available fermentable sugars). I also think it's worth being steered on the right course to begin with - not bumbling your way through with bits and bobs of misinformation with one vague part of it relating to something else. Plyers suggested steeping grain as something simple. While mini-mashing isn't rocket science it is another step and does require a little more attention and understanding to get right. Certainly if you're going to recommend it to someone you might as well encourage a proper understanding as to what and why.

If we're going to get a newbie started on any beer making route, whether grain based or kit based it's best to get them started with a decent understanding of the basics. Suggesting you can replace the sugar in a kit/kilo brew, gram for gram with steeped crystal malt is just plain wrong.

I have no idea why anybody would try and defend it. Imagine in two weeks time when another newb comes along, decides not to start a new thread until they've done a bit of reading and sees 'sub out 1 kg dextrose with 1 kg steeped crystal malt'. At least if it's pointed out as being flawed they might see that too.

 

[manticle]

Manticle,

I think it is great there are so many people out there to help. Yes he would have got a sweeter beer (bad example on my behalf i should have stated a base malt - my bad). All i was trying to do was give the guy an example of how he could use the grain he just got for xmas, yes maybe a bad example but i was trying to illustrate that he could do partial beers on his stove top with the grain, that is all.

My soap box remark was not directed at just you manticle but all of us on AHB. As a relatively new member I have found many a question from a newbie been answered with information way in excess of the question thus confusing the newbie and in some instances it seems it is just a chance for the commenter to "stand on their soap box".

This is not aimed to offend and appologise if it does.

No worries. I'm not offended in the least and I completely agree with the keep it simple approach.

As I stated above though - if no-one pointed out that your suggested use of crystal was an error then it's there, potentially to be considered as legitimate advice for anyone that cares to read it.

You can do partials on a stove-top.

Partials are easy enough too.

However, there's good methods and there's bad methods. Best to start off with the good methods, properly and clearly explained.

 

[rclemmett]

well the final gravity was 1.010 which is what the cooper intsructions said and the temp was about 23c, the bubbles in the air lock had stopped pretty much and in the instructions it says to keep it between 21-27c so i cant see where i have gone wrong? as i have just followed the cooper instrution book.

Step one: Throw Coopers instructions in the bin.

Just because the beer has hit the FG written in the instructions does not mean its finished. You should take multiple readings over at least a 24hr period to make sure it has hit FG. Also, there are other jobs for the yeast to do after it has finished eating all the fermentables, such as cleaning up diacetyl and acetaldehyde.

 

[pauldidge]

Step one: Throw Coopers instructions in the bin.

Just because the beer has hit the FG written in the instructions does not mean its finished. You should take multiple readings over at least a 24hr period to make sure it has hit FG. Also, there are other jobs for the yeast to do after it has finished eating all the fermentables, such as cleaning up diacetyl and acetaldehyde.

so if the the bubbles in the airlock have just about stopped.does this not mean that its finshed? and what you saying is that coopers is wrong?
thanks everyone for all the advice.
its all getting abit much here now, i think i will just read a couple of books.

 

[rclemmett]

so if the the bubbles in the airlock have just about stopped.does this not mean that its finshed? and what you saying is that coopers is wrong?
thanks everyone for all the advice.
its all getting abit much here now, i think i will just read a couple of books.

Thats what I'm saying. The airlock bubbling is not a reliable sign of fermentation, changes in pressure and temperature can cause it to bubble, and no bubbles could merely mean the fermenter doesn't have a good seal.

The temperatures that Coopers say you can brew at is all wrong... Yes you can ferment at 27C but its not going to be all that nice.

edit: Punch airlock into the google search option and have a read.

 

[rclemmett]

I am defending that base malt can substitute for sugar, and that steeping and mashing are fundamentally the same.

Fundamentally however you can't simply replace 1kg of sugar with 1 kg of crystal malt (or even mashed base malt) which is what you seemed to be suggesting.

Now get off your soap box.

 

[Screwtop]

If we're going to get a newbie started on any beer making route, whether grain based or kit based it's best to get them started with a decent understanding of the basics. Suggesting you can replace the sugar in a kit/kilo brew, gram for gram with steeped crystal malt is just plain wrong.

Hear Hear!!!!

Just because the beer has hit the FG written in the instructions does not mean its finished.

Correct!!

I am defending that base malt can substitute for sugar, and that steeping and mashing are fundamentally the same.

Incorrect

Sucrose and Maltose and the other sugars contained in wort from malted grain are very different in fermentability, colour and flavour profile and can not be substituted on a 1:1 basis.

Steeping provides some complexity and fresh malt character, see here http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter13.html

Mashing provides sweet fermentable wort full of a host of sugars and goodies, see here http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter14.html

Not wanting to upset anyone, just hoping to clarify things for PaulDidge, give him good reliable info and point him to further info on the subject.

Cheers,

Screwy

 

[rclemmett]

Sucrose and Maltose and the other sugars contained in wort from malted grain are very different in fermentability, colour and flavour profile and can not be substituted on a 1:1 basis.

Correct. 1:1 it will be different. But it can be substituted.

Steeping provides some complexity and fresh malt character, see here http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter13.html

Mashing provides sweet fermentable wort full of a host of sugars and goodies, see here http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter14.html

Ahh, the word according to John. I like to steep my grains at 64C for an hour. To mash is to steep, see a dictionary.

 

[bum]

its all getting abit much here now, i think i will just read a couple of books.

NO!!!

I mean read the books, by all means, but this site is full of bloody helpful blokes with great info. This argument is going on around you no need to take any of it to heart. Just read all of it, take it in and make up your own mind. We can all take this caper a bit too seriously sometimes but remember that even when people are arguing both sides might have something relevant to say. Read as much as you can.

 

[bum]

Ahh, the word according to John. I like to steep my grains at 64C for an hour. To mash is to steep, see a dictionary.

Are you telling Screwtop how to brew beer?

 

[manticle]

I am defending that base malt can substitute for sugar, and that steeping and mashing are fundamentally the same.




Now get off your soap box.

Please don't misquote me.

The above was a direct response to another poster (ie not you) suggesting you could use specialty malts as a 1:1, weight by weight, pound for pound substitute for dextrose which is simply incorrect.

You defended the suggestion by saying it described the 'gist' of what makes a partial which is also incorrect. It is fundamentally and basically flawed (so the 'gist' is actually bollocks).

Your suggestion that a partial can be done with base malt on a stove top is correct and mashing and steeping are similar. That I have no issue with. If you know how to steep you can certainly mash but they are not identical. The main difference is the need to convert starches which is a big difference and needs to be mentioned. Otherwise every newb will think they can take 4 kg of uncracked pilsner malt, soak it in boiling water and make some beer with it.

Why is it so difficult to want to offer plain simple and correct advice to someone wanting to learn how to brew? Why is it too much to ask that blatanty incorrect advice be corrected?

I've offered wrong advice before and been pulled up on it. Instead of arguing about gists and soap boxes, I do a little research and correct myself, admit to being wrong and try and make sure my bad advice doesn't get taken for gospel by inexperienced brewers.

We really don't need to argue about this any further. You can replace sugar with mashed base malt if you know how to mash and you know what amounts to use. You can't replace it with steeped specialty malt, especially not on a 1:1 basis. That's not rocket science or soap boxing or pontificating or anything but understanding the absolute basics of brewing beer which was the original point.


Cheers.