Good Grain Crush + 92c Mashout = High Efficiency

[Pumpy]

I have always had about a 75% efficiency mainly due to my old grain mill which done a so! so! job

Since I have improved my effieciency to 80-85%

1) have purchased the Mill Master grain crusher

2) combined with a Mash out of about 92C

I have finally changed my target % as some were so way off OG to Style .

Pumpy

 

[JasonY]

Curious if you efficiency gain is more to do with the mill? Have you done a brew with just the mill and a 80C mash out? Higher mash out should reduce the wort viscosity and improve your extraction but I would worry about the tannin extraction. Something I've never tested but I am going to trust the literature.

In any event glad to hear you have improved your efficiency.

 

[reviled]

Have you tried the crush without the high temp mash out? Just curios

 

[Pumpy]

Jason & Reviled

No I havent tried the grain crush alone but I am sure the Mashout helps rinse the grains better ,I have not noticed any astringency problems but the beer dont hang around long .

The mashout is only in accordance with a Beersmith option

Pumpy

 

[reviled]

Might give it a shot and see if I get increased eff :icon_cheers:

 

[MHB]

Hay Pumpy
Your right in thinking that lautering would be faster with hotter water and you will get better extraction.
The problem is that there is always some unconverted starch extracted from the grain during lautering. If the sparge water is over 78 C it will kill off (all right Denature) residual Alpha Amylase, the enzyme if not denatured will breakdown the starch.

Worts made the way you said should test positive for starch (i.e. Iodine Blue) and would be expected to have all the usual problems associated with starchy beer.

Just love brewing compromise compromise and a whole world of yes, but..

MHB

 

[Pumpy]

Hay Pumpy
Your right in thinking that lautering would be faster with hotter water and you will get better extraction.
The problem is that there is always some unconverted starch extracted from the grain during lautering. If the sparge water is over 78 C it will kill off (all right Denature) residual Alpha Amylase, the enzyme if not denatured will breakdown the starch.

Worts made the way you said should test positive for starch (i.e. Iodine Blue) and would be expected to have all the usual problems associated with starchy beer.

Just love brewing compromise compromise and a whole world of yes, but..

MHB

Yes Mark on some simple mashes I have reverted to a 60 min mash as conversion is good .

The 90 min mash appears good for bigger grain bills where there may be some lumps not mixed with the water properly

I do crush the grain as fine as I can without getting a stuck sparge but my system handles it OK .

Pumpy

 

[MHB]

Was talking about starch extracted from the inside of the bits of grain, rather than dough balls.
The following is a lift from Brewing Science and Practice.
But in essence, a good crack, slower lautering and keeping the Calcium content in the sparge water up; appear to be the key factors.

If you really want to you can get nearly 100% efficiency, I cant guarantee that the beer wont taste like ****, but thems the trade offs.

Ultimately we all have to make compromise choices and your pallet will have to help you decide, personally I would be reluctant to take a mash over 78 C

MHB


4.3.8 Wort separation and sparging
At the end of the mash the wort is separated from the residual solids. This may be a rapid
process, as in mash filters, or it may take 1.5-2.5h in some lauter tuns or 4-18h in mash
tuns. An extended run-off period allows residual enzymes to continue acting for at least
part of the time. When a mash tun or lauter tun is used, the first wort to emerge is diluted
with the water that was originally under the plates. The first runnings are generally
returned to the top of the mash and the wort is recycled until it is completely clear and
`runs bright'. Then wort collection begins, the strong wort emerges and gradually the
mash settles onto the plates. Sparging is started and the liquor, sprayed onto the surface
fromrotating sparge-arms, permeates down through the goods, progressively leaching out
and carrying away the remaining extract. In mash tuns this raises the temperature, so the
temperature of the final wort is about 74 oC (165 oF). In contrast, in two- and three-vessel
mashing systems the temperature of the whole mash is usually raised to the sparging
temperature and after wort recirculation (if this is used), the first wort is collected and the
sparge liquor is applied at the same temperature (e.g. 7578 oC; 167172.4 oF).
Although sparging temperatures of up to 80 oC (176 oF) may be used, and the use of
even higher temperatures has been proposed, these are usually avoided because
undesirable flavours and unwanted substances, such as undegraded starch and
hemicelluloses, may be eluted from the goods. This is particularly likely if under-
modified malt or raw cereal adjuncts have been used. At these elevated temperatures
enzyme destruction is rapid, the rates of diffusion of extract materials from the grist
particles is rapid, the rate of wort separation (`filtration') occurs faster, more protein
aggregation occurs and wort viscosity is reduced.

As run off progresses the quality and concentration of the wort declines. The last
runnings contain extract that has a comparatively poor quality (Hind, 1950; Figs 4.15,
4.16). Relative to the extract more high- and low-molecular weight nitrogenous materials,
ash (including phosphates), silicates (mostly from the silica in the malt husk),
polyphenols and astringent substances are dissolved, all these being favoured by the
increasing pH. The specific gravity of the wort rises then declines as the sparge liquor
emerges. As the wort is diluted the fermentability initially increases and finally falls
sharply. Often the pH rises, (e.g. by 0.2-0.7), as the buffering substances are eluted from
the goods. The rise is particularly marked if a bicarbonate sparge liquor is used. This rise
is undesirable and should be checked and the calcium ion concentration of the liquor
should be maintained (Laing and Taylor, 1984). Experimental thick mashes (liquor/grist
2.5/1, i.e. 28.6%) would not run off unless a high concentration of calcium ions (200mg/l)
was used. Thus the last worts are weak, and are relatively rich in poorly flavoured
extractives and potential haze-forming substances. These last runnings, like the press
liquor from the spent grains (Chapter 3), may be stored hot for a short period (to prevent
spoilage by micro-organisms) and then be added to a subsequent mash to recover the
extract. However, to maintain the quality of the beer the weak wort may need to be
clarified by centrifugation to remove suspended solids (particularly lipids) and/or may be
treated with active charcoal (doses of 10-50 g/hl have been suggested) to reduce the
levels of tannins, nitrogenous substances, colour and harsh flavours before it is added to a
later mash (Morraye, 1938; Prechtl, 1967).

 

[Pumpy]

Was talking about starch extracted from the inside of the bits of grain, rather than dough balls.

But in essence, a good crack, slower lautering and keeping the Calcium content in the sparge water up; appear to be the key factors.

If you really want to you can get nearly 100% efficiency, I cant guarantee that the beer wont taste like ****, but thems the trade offs.

Ultimately we all have to make compromise choices and your pallet will have to help you decide, personally I would be reluctant to take a mash over 78 C

MHB

Mark ,

My crush leave little to resemble much in the way of grain .

I have never worried to much about efficiency the flavour of the finished product is paramount to me .

However if one can gain some improvement in efficency without any adverse effect to the finished product why not .

I always thought over 80 C in the mash was a No!No! like you , but these are accepted methods in Beersmith that work well.

Pumpy

 

[dr K]

I can assume you know the basic concept of mashing.
The warm water gelatinises the starches (mash temp and barley starch gelatinization range happily are in the same band). After gelatinisation the starches (which are big long molecules) are chopped up by the amalyse enzymes into little bits and converted to various sugars depandant on temperature, time, substrate etc. this takes time, not because saccarification takes very long but because it is done a bit at a time. After 60 minutes most all of the straches that would have converted have been, and this is dependant on crush, Ca content, grist composition etc, then you sparge, sparging at say 72C is mainly to make it flow easier, you may still get some geatinisation but there should be enough alpha a to convert that tiny bit. Now hitting your bed with 92C water will cook your enzymes and break out pretty much all that ungelatinised starch and lord knows what else. You may think you are increasing your efficiency into the kettle because you have a higher SG but what you are doing is loading the wort with unfermentable starches and associated garbage. If you are lucky these will crash out in the boil and result in trub, hope you are lucky.

K

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Pumpy, I dont have beersmith - whats the actual method you are using??

Is the mashout step a full tilt, raising the whole grain bed to 92 - or is this a cross meaning wording confusion thing and it means you are adding 92 water to get to mashout. What temp is your sparge water and how do you sparge anyway?

Sorry for the 3rd degree, just trying to work out exactly what you are doing and how the positive results can be made to fit with the theory that says "bad" - might give it a go myself once I know whats going on a bit more.

I can sort of see how it might not be so bad if you were batch sparging.. the pH not being so much of an issue then. The same reasons that boiling a decoction isn't bad... not boiling in this case, but also not as thick a portion. Less of each is kinda equal??

I can see MHB's point about starch being a problem though ... there will always be some starch that remains un-gelatinized at mash temps.. the higher temps gelatinize it, but also kill off the enzymes. Be worth doing a starch test just to see. Still, if the beer is good, who cares.

Thirsty

 

[Pumpy]

Pumpy, I dont have beersmith - whats the actual method you are using??

Is the mashout step a full tilt, raising the whole grain bed to 92 - or is this a cross meaning wording confusion thing and it means you are adding 92 water to get to mashout. What temp is your sparge water and how do you sparge anyway?

Sorry for the 3rd degree, just trying to work out exactly what you are doing and how the positive results can be made to fit with the theory that says "bad" - might give it a go myself once I know whats going on a bit more.

I can sort of see how it might not be so bad if you were batch sparging.. the pH not being so much of an issue then. The same reasons that boiling a decoction isn't bad... not boiling in this case, but also not as thick a portion. Less of each is kinda equal??

I can see MHB's point about starch being a problem though ... there will always be some starch that remains un-gelatinized at mash temps.. the higher temps gelatinize it, but also kill off the enzymes. Be worth doing a starch test just to see. Still, if the beer is good, who cares.

Thirsty

Thirsty , for a 40 litre batch

I mash in at say 66C
and hold for an hour or 90 mins depepnding on the grain bill
Mash out involves adding 10 litres water at 92C
Draining the Mash tun into the kettle
Batch Sparge with rest of the water at 75.5C in two batches
I usually split it and wait 10 mins before draining


I understand the addition of 10 litres of 92C hot water ceases the enzyme convertion of any more starch .


Pumpy

 

[Benniee]

Worts made the way you said should test positive for starch (i.e. Iodine Blue) and would be expected to have all the usual problems associated with starchy beer.

Have experienced this one myself - with my mash out and sparge temps get away from me on a couple of brews (high 80's). Got a starch haze in the finished beer that just wouldn't drop out.

Solution was to drink it quick before it staled - so it's not all bad

Now I keep my temps to mid to high 70's and my beers are noticeably clearer.

Benniee

 

[Pumpy]

Have experienced this one myself - with my mash out and sparge temps get away from me on a couple of brews (high 80's). Got a starch haze in the finished beer that just wouldn't drop out.

Solution was to drink it quick before it staled - so it's not all bad

Now I keep my temps to mid to high 70's and my beers are noticeably clearer.

Benniee

90 min boil should take care of the starch haze

Pumpy

 

[buttersd70]

Thirsty , for a 40 litre batch

I mash in at say 66C
and hold for an hour or 90 mins depepnding on the grain bill
Mash out involves adding 10 litres water at 92C

Ah, ok. It's only the water that is at 92, you're not raising the grain bed to that temperature....92c water will raise you to 'normal' mashout of 76ish degrees.

 

[Pumpy]

Ah, ok. It's only the water that is at 92, you're not raising the grain bed to that temperature....92c water will raise you to 'normal' mashout of 76ish degrees.

Yes that sounds right Buttersd it wont raise it the full amount only

Pumpy

 

[Trough Lolly]

Interesting thread - the quest for getting more out of the mash, that's desireable...

I batch sparge. I've improved my efficiency by steadily increasing the sparge volume - to a point. Perhaps I should consider a gypsum addition to the last infusion? On the UK forums, there's plenty of talk about using Calcium.

Cheers,
TL

 

[MHB]

Got me to, I thought you were upping the temp of the mash to over 90 C; sounds like you could add another degree or two with out too much danger.

Had a moment there were I thought you were going for a new style of beer something like Pumpkin Soup

Ok crappy pun sorry but I couldnt resist.

MHB

 

[Ross]

Pumpy,

For a 40l batch adding 10L at 92c isn't going to get you even close to 80c, you could easily add it hotter.
I add 9L of boiling (well 99c) to a 26L batch & it brings the mash up to approx 78c.
Not sure what your mash out temp was previously, but I'm guessing your increased efficiency is mainly down to the increased temp as your previous mash outs were probably pretty cool.


Cheers Ross

 

[Pumpy]

Pumpy,

For a 40l batch adding 10L at 92c isn't going to get you even close to 80c, you could easily add it hotter.
I add 9L of boiling (well 99c) to a 26L batch & it brings the mash up to approx 78c.
Not sure what your mash out temp was previously, but I'm guessing your increased efficiency is mainly down to the increased temp as your previous mash outs were probably pretty cool.


Cheers Ross

There you go , thanks Ross , you know what its like when the old scaremonger's get hold of a good story and beat it up a bit have everyone questioning what is right and wrong .

Pumpy