Good Grain Crush + 92c Mashout = High Efficiency

[Fourstar]

maybe thats what he means?? Stu is a sensible kind of a fella so I assume it is, but who knows??

Maybe next time i will pose the question .

Any further details there Stu?

 

[Trent]

I allways use boiling water to sparge , as I notice it helps rinse the sugars and increase eff%. Crush also has a big effect to. I t did a batch one day after the kids had been fiddling with the mill and got a corse crush with nearly no flour, and eff% when crap.

If he uses boiling water to achieve mashout temp, then I undestand that, but he specifically says that he uses boiling water to sparge.
And I have experienced tannins in a double batch after accidentally allowing my second batch sparge (when i used to batch sparge) to get up into the high 80's. Both batches were undrinkable and had to be turfed, so the whole bit about tannins, in my opinion and experience, is not a myth. Mind you, it is very easy to avoid them. And if your efficiency is a little low, throw some more grain in at the start.
All the best
T

 

[samhighley]

A simple "no" would be fine.

No.

I guess what you're implying is that because i've taken the advice of others who have taken the time to research an issue, rather than try it myself, then somehow my opinion is not valid?

 

[samhighley]

In my opinion, adding boiling water to your mash tun if you're batch sparging is asking for trouble.

Even if, after adding all the boiling water, your mash temperature ends up at, say, 80C, at some point a whole lot of the grain is going to be subjected to very high temperatures.

If you don't believe me, then get a bucket and fill it with 40C water. This is a perfectly tolerable temperature (I bathe at 40C) for a human, so plunge your hand into the water. Now take a kettle full of boiling water and pour it into the water right next to your hand I'd be surprised if you don't suffer a serious burn.

Now think about that from the grains point of view.

 

[Fourstar]

Now think about that from the grains point of view.

Unfortunatly no everyone is using a HERMS or RIMS, how would YOU get your mashout temp to 77 deg without adding near boiling water to bring it up to temp without one of those methods? macro/micro breweries fly sparge with 100 deg C water. How is this an issue? I believe it would be extended rests with the grain husks to extract tannins. SAy 10-15 mins before the sparge above 77deg temps. More so in darker beers drawing out astringent carcenogens from the burnt husks over say a pilsner.

 

[mash head]

Just a little hint, this thread is a few months old.

Am sure that the info is just as valiid today as it was then or has there been some ground breaking new work done?
Happy brewwing. Greg

 

[tourist]

No.

I guess what you're implying is that because i've taken the advice of others who have taken the time to research an issue, rather than try it myself, then somehow my opinion is not valid?

Not at all - your opinion (as with everyone else's) is completely valid. I have a belief that these, and many other aspects of brewing should be thought about and tested with a bit of creative experimentation and *gasp* occasional scepticism. By giving someone a two-word (I thought it sounded smug) opinion based on a dude's book (yes there are undoubtedly more), without actually having any experience only served to limit others' inclination to explore these aspects of this great hobby.

I don't care who's right - I'm almost sure you are, but I'm not 100% sure and I hope there are others like me (only much more handsome).

 

[tourist]

(I bathe at 40C)

Can you post a photo?

 

[Smashin]

Sorry if this is a bit off topic and gratis that I haven't read the entire thread.

I would consistently achieve high 70's and a one time 81%

I moved 10k down the road and have never hit anything over 72% generally mid to high 60's (16months of this now).

I tried crushing differences, hot sparge water (~95+), run off rates, .......... to no avail.

A lingering though was the water change may have thrown my mash ph off, given how soft the water is here in tassie i kept dismissing this being such a significant cause (old water was from the south esk river (same as boags), the new water is sourced from the meander river, both <70ppm tds). On top of this my ph Meter is calibrated to 4.0 on each brew day.

I finally bit the bullet and bought 5.2pH buffer from ross just to put my mind at ease. brewed this morning and couldn't belive it 84% efficiency best ever. This has also convinced me that my 4.0ph calibrating solution is knackered (possibly some PWB got in there ??)...can't express just how relieved I am to be back on track.

For reference I flysparge using sparge water at ~85deg, this keeps my grain bed around 76deg. Mashout is typically 77 to allow for a bit of temp drop on the 15min settling time before sparging.

my 2c...don't underestimate water chemistry and buffers

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

I have measured the grist temp after adding boiling water at EVERY sparge...

Be lucky to get the grain bed temp above 80* after 3 sparges with boiling water..

You guys are way of track when it comes to temp and tannins


Think about it

I drain, re-circulate and lose temp every time ...takes a lot energy to raise the grain bed temp

Carry on with your theory boys....

I will stick with my known practical methods B)

 

[dr K]

Tea needs to be made with boiling water, better still if the pot is pre-heated and always bring the kettle to the pot. Water comes "off the boil" very quickly and I suspect that DB Stu's "boiling" water is a long way off the boil when it hits the grain bed, indeed his observations suggest it is only marginally at best above the bed temp.

K

 

[Sammus]

I have measured the grist temp after adding boiling water at EVERY sparge...

Be lucky to get the grain bed temp above 80* after 3 sparges with boiling water..

You guys are way of track when it comes to temp and tannins


Think about it

I drain, re-circulate and lose temp every time ...takes a lot energy to raise the grain bed temp

Carry on with your theory boys....

I will stick with my known practical methods B)

Ah reading throught this I thought you meant you were actually sparging with boiling water, in the true sense of the word. So by sparge here you actually mean batch "sparging" - or rinsing as it should be called. Makes perfect sense now

Sorry, just my pedantic nature...sparging by definition in our application is sprinkling or trickling the rinsing water in slowly while running off at an equal rate, what people often call 'fly sparging'. But the trickling low flow part is where the word sparge came from, I don't like the use of 'sparge' when talking about batch "sparging" because it really isn't sparging at all.. its just a kind of rinsing. IT should be fly rinsing = sparging, and batch rinsing. But I'm not sure how many will agree with me on that.. just a pet annoyance of mine

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

OOhhh FFS

Give me some vaso.... h34r:

 

[samhighley]

Can you post a photo?

You don't want that. Conroy would be all over the place in a flash.

 

[samhighley]

tested with a bit of creative experimentation and *gasp* occasional scepticism.

I'm all for experimentation, but experimenting with tannin extraction is not something I have time for. I constantly achieve 80% efficiency from mash tun to boiler, so I don't really want to bother trying to raise efficiency a few points at the risk of something else happening. Grain is cheap, time is not.

By giving someone a two-word (I thought it sounded smug) opinion based on a dude's book

Apologies if I sounded smug. It wasn't my intention. Palmer is an excellent read, and I highly recommend it if you haven't read it yet.

 

[SJW]

Hey Pumpy, This is exactly what I found when I started cracking my own grain and using the Beersmith program TO THE LETTER, but I got flamed when I said it in an old post that my eff. went up heaps buy mashing out with nearly boiling water. Like what was revealed earlier in this thread that it is only meant to raise the total mash temp to 76 deg or so.
Keep up the good work.

Steve

 

[tourist]

I'm all for experimentation, but experimenting with tannin extraction is not something I have time for. I constantly achieve 80% efficiency from mash tun to boiler, so I don't really want to bother trying to raise efficiency a few points at the risk of something else happening. Grain is cheap, time is not.

I can understand that you are not concerned about raising your efficiency. As someone who would someday like to judge/critique my own and others' beer and give sound brewing advice to brewers, I hope to find the time (and grain) to do some experiments that exposes the cause and effects of tannin extraction and other flaws. I guess Im a 'learning by doing' kind of guy.

To date I have successfully generated multiple flaws in various beers - now I just need to know how to get rid of them.

 

[Fourstar]

Then the question boils down to decoction mashing.. no one bats an eyelid when you are boiling grain and husk... some with low and high ratios of grain:water.

You are keeping grain at 100deg C for up to 20 mins rather than pouring boiling water on your grain to achieve safe a mashout temp which equalises within 30 seconds with some constant stirring. Riddle me that!

 

[tourist]

I put the same point forward on another forum - someone pointed out that the low pH of the boiling mash may stabilise the tannins as opposed to the sparge process that sees the pH elevate to tannin-leeching proportions.

Still not convinced, but.

There is OBVIOUSLY more to tannin extraction than temps alone if people are boiling the piss (literally) out of their grain and getting way with it.

 

[samhighley]

if people are boiling the piss (literally) out of their grain

Literally? Are you saying your beer has piss in it, pre-boil?