Fully Automated Brewing System Design

[AndrewQLD]

It's good to see that after all this time the BCS-460 finally supports celcius. That was what put me off buying that unit 12 mths ago, it's a very good piece of kit for the dollars.

Andrew

 

[Bandito]

Wow! I hade no idea this thread would invoke such an interest!. I am trying to refrain from answering all the questions as I am hard at work developing the process flow diagram. I am taking note of all the suggestions and they are influencing the design. The gravity thing is noted, as is the larger batches - I just put in 24 x5L fermenters spread over two fridges and got freaked out at the probable cost of an extra 48 machanised valves!. I had a quick look at the brewtroller board with interest. And of course the comments on nothing ever working first time - agree. The yeast(s) will either enjoy their own fermenters dedicated to them, or will be harvested from previous brews, or mabbe a mixture. It seams I wont be doing this alone, All youz will be putting your two cents, I'm sure. If there is so much interest in it I am inclined to try to design it in a way that others could make use of it. The first step is to get a full process flow diagram going - better get back to it....

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions.
Bandito

 

[Bandito]

Attached a pdf of the current state of the pfd. Please dont comment on it - there is so much wrong with it its not funny. It is just a snapshot of a work in progress. I have probably done like 5 hours on it so far, so I guess I am about 2 to 5% into the process design phase. After this will be the P&ID drawings (Process and Instrumentation Diagrams) which will detail the process control requirements (relay connections etc.), then the Electrical diagrams which will detail the power requirements - a long process, but if I do it properly most of the time will be spent doing this boring stuff. By the time I order my first part every facet will be sorted.

V- are valves
P- are pumps
LC- are load cells (scales) Thanks to mark^******* for the idea. this should help with measuring grain, hops, water and yeast slurry!
R-1 is a reducer to reduce the 4mm OD tube from the water filter to the brew piping.
MV- are mill valves
HV- are hop valves

View attachment AUTOBREW_01_Layout1.pdf

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Do a google on a "continuous fermentation" system it may help your fermentation design side of things. If you cant find any thing I will have a look through my books.
GB

 

[Bandito]

Do a google on a "continuous fermentation" system it may help your fermentation design side of things. If you cant find any thing I will have a look through my books.
GB

This may explain why the manifolds I have drafted reciently were yeast blending manifolds. It always puzzled me - are they just harvesting yeast from batches that have achieved final gravity, or are they constantly circulating the wort to achieve a wort with yeast suspended in it as opposed to having a yeast cake on the bottom for a lager or a trub on the top for an ale. Not sure but reading that link now. Clocked off designing the system for the night...

 

[rwmingis]

Haha, he said "hop hopper".

Looking at your PFD.PDF, looks like you've drawn one of these before. You're off to a good start, and good point on multiple fermenters, those valves are exxxy, even the solenoids are in smallish quanitities.

I will be interested in seeing how you cover cleaning/sanitisation and yeast management on the clean side of things.

Cheers,

BB.

 

[yardy]

Attached a pdf of the current state of the pfd. Please dont comment on it

gday bandito, sorry mate but where's the kettle ?

cheers

Dave

 

[andytork]

Once fermented are you bottling or kegging ?

Can you get 5L corny stype kegs (other than the disposable ones) ?

This may be reason to step up to at least around 9L

 

[Bandito]

I will be interested in seeing how you cover cleaning/sanitisation and yeast management on the clean side of things.

Yep, thats going to be fun - not. will start putting it in now.

gday bandito, sorry mate but where's the kettle ?

cheers

Dave

Oh yea, forgot.

Once fermented are you bottling or kegging ?

Can you get 5L corny stype kegs (other than the disposable ones) ?

This may be reason to step up to at least around 9L

Probably a mixture of both. I've been thinking that multiple small batches could be added to the one fermenter. I am planning on using conical fermenters to help with the yeast collection and cleaning.

 

[T.D.]

I'm wondering whether the easiest way to build a fully automated brewery is to design it from a BIAB perspective? I'm just thinking out loud here but at least then you could potentially do the whole brew in one vessel, so no issues with pumping etc, would keep the whole pumping part of things to a minimum. You could brew, and even maybe ferment in the one vessel (obviously there may be issues with cooling and the merits of fermenting wort with hot break in it), but it would take a heap of the hassle out of the designing process...

You could have the mill release the grains into the immersed gran bag when the strike temp is met, and then have another winch hoyst the grain bag out of the pot after a certain time, then boil for a certain time, then another mechanism that releases yeast into the wort when it cools to pitching temp (either by recirculating it through a chiller or just letting it naturally cool, the latter would obviously be more risky). The beauty of this method is that sterilising fermenters and transfer hoses would not be necessary (which could be an additional stress that you don't need).

Again just thinking out loud...

 

[jetman]

This post has just blown me away, previously being a mechanical engineer and having started electrical engineering this week i feel jaded with myself for not having thought of it, but i guess as yet i'm still getting to know the basics of brewing and one must crawl blah blah blah.

I am very keen to see what you come up with and wish you the best of luck, however I agree with a few of the other members in saying that for me this would take away from my brewing experience. I would add that your budget seems tight at first glance but really hope you get it together.

Please do keep the posts coming.

 

[OzMick]

Yep, thats going to be fun - not. will start putting it in now.

Hygiene will make or break this project, don't underestimate it. If you read about people's experiences with commonly used full bore stainless ball valves, they need to be broken open frequently, heat and sanitiser alone only go so far and they do eventually foul up and are easy to discount as the source of ongoing infection. Will probably need to be looked at as a periodic maintenance thing to strip everything down every so often, the price to step up to truly sanitary valves so that you can confidently clean in place will probably be unrealistic.

If you're considering doing brews immediately after the other, you might want to run your first stage wort chiller waste water back into your hot liquor tank rather than to drain to recover some heat and save some time getting water to temperature, can probably get close to strike temperature with an adequately sized chiller.

 

[Batz]

Ross has one of these now, soon to be shown off I believe...can I come? can I, can I?

Batz

 

[komodo]

Why have a hlt? with a 5L batch surely an instantanious hot water system would make more sence especially with this whole automated brewery setup.
Also as pointed out you dont have a kettle listed but you have hops going into the HLT.

I dont think your 3000 budget is even close to what this is going to cost you

 

[Bandito]

I'm wondering whether the easiest way to build a fully automated brewery is to design it from a BIAB perspective?

Hmmm, I've been quite worried about how to avoid grain getting stuck in the false bottom in the mash tun and how to get it out to clean under it. Mabee a biab type piece of cloth could be used as a pre filter so that when the mash/lauter tun is turned upside down (as it will be on hinges) to empty the spent grain it all comes out in one huge clump as it will be inside the bag. Nice! thanks.

I would add that your budget seems tight at first glance but really hope you get it together.

The budget is to make sure I dont go too overboard. It is just a guestimate. Until I know what hardware is required it will only be a guesstimate.

Hygiene will make or break this project, don't underestimate it. If you read about people's experiences with commonly used full bore stainless ball valves, they need to be broken open frequently, heat and sanitiser alone only go so far and they do eventually foul up and are easy to discount as the source of ongoing infection. Will probably need to be looked at as a periodic maintenance thing to strip everything down every so often, the price to step up to truly sanitary valves so that you can confidently clean in place will probably be unrealistic.

Agreed. The Clean In Process is the most important part of the whole system - no expense can be spared here - I do intend on using sanitary valves, triclovers etc. I dont think there is any other way.

Why have a hlt? with a 5L batch surely an instantanious hot water system would make more sence especially with this whole automated brewery setup.
Also as pointed out you dont have a kettle listed but you have hops going into the HLT.

I dont think your 3000 budget is even close to what this is going to cost you

I am not sure what you mean by an instantaneous hot water system? I dont want to use gas inside the house so would this be electric?

As for the HLT / kettle thing, I am not sure which is which. I thought the HLT was the hot liquour tank in which the wort was boiled, and the kettle was where the brew water was heated for mashing and sparge water or is it the other way around?



Wall, all I managed to get done tonight was the airation system, overflows into the drain that will be open when filling the fermenters and when cleaning, and added sanitary filters for CO2 release. Also added a revision and title table to keep track of changes to the design, and added an aquipment and valve list which I started filling out with typical equipment numbers to help read the diagram. Working toward the CIP one bit at a time, bit it is going to take at least a week.

So tonights snapshot of the current design is attached...

View attachment AUTOBREW_01_REV_B.pdf

 

[Bandito]

Some replies to earlier posts as I exceeded the limit of quoted replies!.....

pfft that is so noughties. maccas drive throughs dont even do that anymore.

He can rig up a set of scales under his tap that holds the glass, and the scales shut off the tap when the glass is full. Maybe even some hydraulic glass tilting would be in order.

Great idea! I have been grappeling with how to measure quantities of grain, hops, water - scales are the answer - or more precisley, load cells which are in scales.

Bandito, 7 pages of jealous bickering will probably occur here but don't let that think there aren't people interested in what you're doing. Please keep us updated.

Not much zealous bickering yet, but plenty of posts. Wasnt expecting it, but it does help with the dive to get it done. If I hadnt posted I probable would have sat back and waited another several months - now I am working on it hardcore.

How will you burn yourself on brewday? How will you leave a fermenter tap open once you start transfering hot wort?

These are key issues to all homebrewers.

DrinkBeer

The burning yourself on brewday will be replaced by how will I give myseld a mild electric shock from the 24Volt system that I failed to ground properly, the countless valves that decide not to work for some reason, the hundreds of wires that get mixed up with each other and the inevitable fermenter valve that opens all on it own for some unknown reason and drips wort over and into everything, requiring several hours of cleanup...

<_<
http://www.brewtroller.com/

Looking into that. thanks!

:lol:

I've been looking into automation gear but low level and not just for brewing but for aquaculture and garden automation mostly..SNIP...
Cheers,
Brewer Pete

I considered this path too, but thats for my next project - a fully autonamous robot that is not limited by not being able to harm humans! I have a pc which is on most of the time and my mate doing a phd suggested labview as a really easy way to automate stuff, so I figured why not give it a go.

Im very interested in automations, although I think it isnt possible to build a system that matches to all brewers demands.
Cheers

If there were there would probably be only one style of beer in the world, and none of us would like it and so we would probably brew our own with our custom designed brew sytems!

Yep bandito you are still going to build a big robot to empty the mashtun and clean out the kettle with a scrubby
pumpy

I wont be that big a robot! the mash tun will be mounted to a hinge, and a tap sprayer will be mounted to the mash tun so all I need is a lever thingy to tip it over and then spray it with water. I can clean out the clingon's each day, but that may be 5 batches or so.

sounds like a university assignment to me .

You have to be able to mash a beer before you can automate a system.

I am sure you will enjoy building it more than brewing the beer .

Dont encourage him Zwickle remember Zizzles posts 10000 posts later and the auto brewery still looked like mine with a computer in front of it

pumpy

I dont go to uni, I work to support my brewing habbit.

Yea, I do need to get the mashing process down pat - only 3 AG's so far.

Yes, I will probably enjoy building it more than brewing beer - who wouldnt!

Zwickle has already influenced me! I have seen his pc setup in a photo blog. It is too big for me, I am after something about the size of a fridge (excluding brew fridge). I also dont want to automate gas heating. A couple with a baby live below me so I have to eliminate the possibility of a leak and un-ignighted fuel which would lead to an explosion. So I am left with electric which has limits to the volume that can be heated. I also dont want it outside, it is limited to my small laundry or if really need be - my bathroom.

 

[katzke]

Zwickle has already influenced me! I have seen his pc setup in a photo blog. It is too big for me, I am after something about the size of a fridge (excluding brew fridge). I also dont want to automate gas heating. A couple with a baby live below me so I have to eliminate the possibility of a leak and un-ignighted fuel which would lead to an explosion. So I am left with electric which has limits to the volume that can be heated. I also dont want it outside, it is limited to my small laundry or if really need be - my bathroom.

The thought that the use of electricity for heating is holding you down to small batches shows a lack of reading on this site. I seem to recall several people have electric 3 vessel systems with control. The fact that you are not sure what an HLT does and that you think you need to brew small when using electricity for heat says you need to do some more research. You can flow chart all day but if you do not understand the process it is just for fun because the final product has little chance to work. Get a better understanding of the process and write an outline before you go to all the effort to design a process control system of a process you do not understand.

Sorry if I sound like an *** but dont have time to PC the post so I just said it.

 

[Bandito]

The thought that the use of electricity for heating is holding you down to small batches shows a lack of reading on this site. I seem to recall several people have electric 3 vessel systems with control. The fact that you are not sure what an HLT does and that you think you need to brew small when using electricity for heat says you need to do some more research. You can flow chart all day but if you do not understand the process it is just for fun because the final product has little chance to work. Get a better understanding of the process and write an outline before you go to all the effort to design a process control system of a process you do not understand.

Sorry if I sound like an *** but don't have time to PC the post so I just said it.

You do sound like an ***, but you are forgiven. The first post details my specifications, not my last. Quote from OP: "Due to the space requirements and cost I am planning for the system to have about a 5 litre fermenter capacity".

My last question is related to nomenclature - terminology - glossary of terms. I know their purpose, but there are conflicting posts here and on the net - thus the question.

 

[yardy]

Hmmm, I've been quite worried about how to avoid grain getting stuck in the false bottom in the mash tun and how to get it out to clean under it. Mabee a biab type piece of cloth could be used as a pre filter so that when the mash/lauter tun is turned upside down (as it will be on hinges) to empty the spent grain it all comes out in one huge clump as it will be inside the bag. Nice! thanks.





As for the HLT / kettle thing, I am not sure which is which. I thought the HLT was the hot liquour tank in which the wort was boiled, and the kettle was where the brew water was heated for mashing and sparge water or is it the other way around?

gday bandito,

mash tun: a piece of cloth in a fully automated system ?

why not a decent sized dump valve in the base of the Tun to assist with cleaning ?

for this to work you should be underletting your strike water also (water from HLT flows in under the false bottom)

to CIP after the spent grain has been dumped your rinse/spray water would first flow from the top and then from the underlet, everything goes out the dump valve.

i'm not saying this would work as i think there will always be a small amount of grain left behind in the false bottom but i think if you're serious it's a better alternative than a piece of cloth that could present lautering problems, high pressure and a series of rinses through the dump valve would help.



in order, HLT to MLT to Kettle

cheers

Dave

 

[pdilley]

Sounds like brewing in an apartment from the description re: gas and baby downstairs post.

So two things constraining the OP. Physical space to fit the brewery gear and Number of electric circuits to run the electric heaters. The first there isn't much to do except build as much vertical into it as possible to minimise floorspace and the latter is to find the circuit breaker and identify (if noncircuit diagram handy by switching each one off/on with lights or stereos or other items plugged into each outlet while switched on and see what stays on and powered and what got turned off) how many actual circuits you have and what Amp ratings the breakers are set to in order to maximize how many circuits can be tapped at the same time to power all the heating elements (sans the kitchen circuit as turning the fridge off for all the time needed heating and boiling is not a good idea). That could eliminate then heating/capacity boiling issue but you still have to face the first issue of physical space.

The space issue I can get a feeling you have addressed from your writing but don't get a strong feeling of the electric circuit issue for tapping for driving multiple heating coils so look into it if you have not as you may be able to solve your volume issues. Drive one coil per circuit at the maximum wattage levels you can safely drive on each circuit that it can handle.


Cheers,
Brewer Pete