Fridge Help

[Diesel80]

Hi,

I have an old fridge, freebie given to me i am using for fermenting. I like it as it holds 2x 30L fermenters. Westinghouse 502 Signature Series is its model name.

I recently brewed two batches in a day and the SG has stabilised at 10days. I turned the fridgemate controller to 2 degrees +- 1deg and left it overnight. This morning, it was only reading 7 degrees.

The freezer compartment is cranking cold, but the air flow to the fridge seems lacklustre and its performance seems inadequate for CC my brews.

How do i increase the flow of air from the freezer to the fridge section?
What are my options (discounting getting a new fridge!).

Would love it if a fridgie could give some pointers. Also would like it if i don't get electricuted. Have replaced an overload relay in this fridge and can wire up a fridgemate, so with correct instructions I can cut, strip and connect wires if needed!

Cheers,
D80

 

[Yob]

gday, my fridge is an oldie too, but is a goodun... still it takes almost a full day or so to drop it to 2'c, so maybe just patience is required, if yours contains 2 FV's the thermal mass is huge and it will take time to get down.

Yob

[edit] you could always take the freezer door off to aid in letting colder air fall down over the FV's?

 

[real_beer]

Hi,

I have an old fridge, freebie given to me i am using for fermenting. I like it as it holds 2x 30L fermenters. Westinghouse 502 Signature Series is its model name.

I recently brewed two batches in a day and the SG has stabilised at 10days. I turned the fridgemate controller to 2 degrees +- 1deg and left it overnight. This morning, it was only reading 7 degrees.

The freezer compartment is cranking cold, but the air flow to the fridge seems lacklustre and its performance seems inadequate for CC my brews.

How do i increase the flow of air from the freezer to the fridge section?
What are my options (discounting getting a new fridge!).

Would love it if a fridgie could give some pointers. Also would like it if i don't get electricuted. Have replaced an overload relay in this fridge and can wire up a fridgemate, so with correct instructions I can cut, strip and connect wires if needed!

Cheers,
D80

Check the door seals are okay. Is the freezer compartment separate from the fridge?, If it is, has the fridge being running since you first got it or just overnight? The fan in the freezer might not be working. Sometimes if the defrost heater isn't working ice builds up & slows or blocks the airflow to the fridge. I had this problem with our house fridge last year & paid a 'fridgie' $180 to fix it, make that wasted $180 for a no fix. Now I just pull the freezer apart every 6 weeks & hand defrost. If you just turned it on overnight that won't be your problem.

One thing you could do to help is cut a piece of cardboard or Styrofoam to fit inside the front of the fridge about the height of the fermenter to stop the cold air falling out each time you open the door.

 

[Diesel80]

Check the door seals are okay. Is the freezer compartment separate from the fridge?, If it is, has the fridge being running since you first got it or just overnight? The fan in the freezer might not be working. Sometimes if the defrost heater isn't working ice builds up & slows or blocks the airflow to the fridge. I had this problem with our house fridge last year & paid a 'fridgie' $180 to fix it, make that wasted $180 for a no fix. Now I just pull the freezer apart every 6 weeks & hand defrost. If you just turned it on overnight that won't be your problem.

One thing you could do to help is cut a piece of cardboard or Styrofoam to fit inside the front of the fridge about the height of the fermenter to stop the cold air falling out each time you open the door.

Some further info:
unit is a Fridge / Freezer with Freezer up the top.

Freezer fan is working and there is heaps of circulating airflow in the freezer compartment.
The airflow into the fridge on coldest dial setting seems pretty uninspirational, especially for a fridge with a 'super chill zone'.

Could i have a blockage or a stuck damper in the current ducting? How much airflow should i be feeling from the freezer entering the fridge. Seems to be dribbling in only.

Cheers,
D80

 

[Nibbo]

Not an expert but i have a fridge/freezer that the freezer is like antartica and the fridge is like the simpson desert...my thoughts are the thermostat is dodgy and needs replacing. Not sure if this is of any help?

 

[kjparker]

I had a fridge like that at one point.

I thought it was dead, so I bought a new one. Turns out it was iced up so badly internally it just couldnt function.

After I cleaned up the huge puddle of water inside it (and under it) the thing worked perfectly.

When was the last time you defrosted it?

 

[Diesel80]

Not an expert but i have a fridge/freezer that the freezer is like antartica and the fridge is like the simpson desert...my thoughts are the thermostat is dodgy and needs replacing. Not sure if this is of any help?

The thought crossed my mind. I would be happy to eliminate this by removing the thermostat completely (using a fridgemate with the fridge) but as yet i have not pull out any of the interior panelling to check the wiring etc.

I was wondering if i could remove the 'floor' of the freezer compartment to find some space not taken up by other componentry and then install addtional ducting down into the fridge area. Could set a 120mm Computer Fan to pull air into the fridge whilst the Fridgemate has it powered. I have some 240 to 12v transformer things to test out at home. Does anyone know if this is feasible?

Cheers,
D80

 

[Diesel80]

I had a fridge like that at one point.

I thought it was dead, so I bought a new one. Turns out it was iced up so badly internally it just couldnt function.

After I cleaned up the huge puddle of water inside it (and under it) the thing worked perfectly.

When was the last time you defrosted it?

Hi Clueless, it has been fermenting some brews for last 10 days at 18-20degrees, last night was the first time i have cranked it full (via the fridgemate controller set to 2deg).

Hasn't had a chance to get frosted yet (only replaced the overload relay on it 2 weeks ago as well, so before then it wasn't running at all).

Cheers,
D80

 

[Amber Fluid]

I reckon Yob has hit the nail on the head. i.e. there is a lot of mass in there to bring down to your required temp. If I turn mine down to 2C from 18C then it'll take all night to get down that far and that is with only 1 fermenter let alone 2.

Let it go all day without opening the door etc. and check what it is tonight. My money is it will be closer to your 2C

 

[rangaz]

from the way it sounds you have the same problem I had. Just to check we have the same style of fridge. My fridge is the fridge freezer type with a single evaporator in the freezer section. The compressor runs off the thermo in the freezer. Friddge temp is controlled by a mechanical lever type thermostat that opens and closes a vent from the freezer to allow convection.

A partial fix is to add a large thermal mass in the freezer section such as a few kilos of water. This wasnt enough for me though so I went with cutting open the space between the freezer and fridge completely so it became one larger chamber. I then got a fridge themo (VB7 i think from memory) to replace the old freezer thermo, although you could use a digital thermo instead. If you dont want to go that far, the fix you suggested with the small hole and the comp fan will also work.

If you want I can post some pics when I get home

 

[Diesel80]

from the way it sounds you have the same problem I had. Just to check we have the same style of fridge. My fridge is the fridge freezer type with a single evaporator in the freezer section. The compressor runs off the thermo in the freezer. Friddge temp is controlled by a mechanical lever type thermostat that opens and closes a vent from the freezer to allow convection.

A partial fix is to add a large thermal mass in the freezer section such as a few kilos of water. This wasnt enough for me though so I went with cutting open the space between the freezer and fridge completely so it became one larger chamber. I then got a fridge themo (VB7 i think from memory) to replace the old freezer thermo, although you could use a digital thermo instead. If you dont want to go that far, the fix you suggested with the small hole and the comp fan will also work.

If you want I can post some pics when I get home

Can, pics would be tops mate!

I will pull off the freezer panels after i keg these beers on the weekend (hopefully) to see what i am up against.
Did your freezer have a defrost unit in it?

Just curious, what would adding water into the freezer do? does this take up volume and force more air into the fridge section? If so i could fill the freezer tonight, anything to help my brews in the next few days.

Cheers,
D80

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

FWIW - I put my no chilled fermenter in a freezer with a temp controller in it on sunday. Yeast pitched and started fornicating fairly well immediately, and by the afternoon, it'd dropped to the 19 degrees I'd dialled in. The freezer is very small as well, which would aid cooling quicker.

Overnight it went from basically boiling to 25 degrees. That was a freezer. A fridge takes longer - my kegs usually go from 20 degrees to 6 degrees (my serving temp) in around 24 hours.

Around friday, I'll turn off the temp controller, let it raise a little in temp, and then turn it back on, drop the temp to 2 degrees and cold condition. I expect it to take around 24 hours to get from 20 degrees+ to 2 degrees.

 

[real_beer]

Could i have a blockage or a stuck damper in the current ducting? How much airflow should i be feeling from the freezer entering the fridge. Seems to be dribbling in only.

Cheers,
D80

Here's what happened to me, the freezer was ice cold, the fridge was getting warmer & the compressor running constantly. When I pulled apart the freezer compartment ice had stopped the air from being able to be circulated by the fan.


It could be like you say, the ducting is blocked by a broken damper. Some of the other answers are probably more on the mark about giving it more time to cool down, two fermenter's of beer are going to take a while to bring down to where you want them. The person who gave you the fridge might have had the same problem, it would pay to ask them. Sometimes moving fridges around can cause a lot of problems. But from my past experiences with old fridges If you reach the stage you have to get someone out to fix it you'd be best off just getting another fridge. The best thing to do when you start this brewing caper is make friends with an electrician, a plumber, fridgie, and welder who like to drink beer. Good luck. :icon_cheers:

 

[Batz]

Inside the fridge there a ducting where the cold air comes out, take the ducting off, just a couple of screws. Under there is a little flap made out of styrofoam, this could be stuck or needs ripping off like mine did ! This gets that cold air thing happening again.

 

[Diesel80]

Inside the fridge there a ducting where the cold air comes out, take the ducting off, just a couple of screws. Under there is a little flap made out of styrofoam, this could be stuck or needs ripping off like mine did ! This gets that cold air thing happening again.

Sounds like a winner.

I can see where the meat storage tray used to be is a vent that you can fully, partially or not cover with a slider, i presume to control how cold the meat section is. I have this slider fully open, and there is nothing coming out of it. If i look up into the 'vent' there seems to be some kind of foam there, i presume this is acting like some kind of filter / air flow regulator. I think i may do as you say, identify the forms of flow regulation and then seek to eradicate, piece by piece.

Hopefully i can have a win following this approach. Would be nice not to have to butcher the fridge too much. Could fit a fair number of cornies in it so if my yet to be built keezer packs it in, this old chestnut could be on dispense duty....

 

[rangaz]

Pic as promised

You cant see it but the thermo is at the end of the wires. I've been messing around with it for another project so its not in its enclosure. Its a bit of a squeeze but I can now fit three kegs in there and its is able to get all three down to serving temp overnight which is always a plus. You may not want to go to this extreme but it is possible and works quite well.
oh and yes mine does have an auto defrost

 

[Diesel80]

Pic as promised

You cant see it but the thermo is at the end of the wires. I've been messing around with it for another project so its not in its enclosure. Its a bit of a squeeze but I can now fit three kegs in there and its is able to get all three down to serving temp overnight which is always a plus. You may not want to go to this extreme but it is possible and works quite well.
oh and yes mine does have an auto defrost

Thanks Can for the pic.

i have done some further investigationing this evening.

I was following up Batz's lead from earlier in the thread and located the foam ducting. It does not appear to have any blockages i can tell from fishing about. Unfortunately i found that there is a thermostat in the fridge section which may be controlling the compressor (rather that the mechanical flap assembly i was hoping for!).

I have hypothesised that since there is only one compressor there should only be one thermostat, therefore there may be a mechanical setup for controlling the freezer section. I will check this when i have kegged the brews.

As it is, the fridge managed to get the brews down to 4 deg over the remainder of the day. That is not too bad, i have my fridgemate at 2 degrees but the fridge shuts down off its own thermostat before hitting this temp. i think i was just spoilt using my chesty before and being able to cc at 1 deg with ease.

I do have a spare universal thermostat here, which i was going to drop into my chest freezer, it is set down to 0 degrees, so fitting this may be an option if i get desperate for future brews!

Cheers for all the input!

D80.

 

[rangaz]

Yeah mine had a thermostat in the fridge section too. The one in the the freezer will drive the comp while the the fridge one will control a small amount of air flow from the freezer. Was it an electrical or mechanical type (did it have wire leads coming from it)?

You can have multiple evaporators (the finned heat exchangers on the inside of the fridge that get cold) running off of a single compressor with the temperature of each controlled by the tx valve. This is not too common though. Also, if there is only a single evaporator, then the compressor will be cycled by the coldest part of the fridge, ie. the freezer.

It just sounds like you need to be more patient and it will get down there.

One last thought... My fridge had a wiring diagram on the back that was quite helpfull when I was repurposing it

 

[Diesel80]

Yeah mine had a thermostat in the fridge section too. The one in the the freezer will drive the comp while the the fridge one will control a small amount of air flow from the freezer. Was it an electrical or mechanical type (did it have wire leads coming from it)?

You can have multiple evaporators (the finned heat exchangers on the inside of the fridge that get cold) running off of a single compressor with the temperature of each controlled by the tx valve. This is not too common though. Also, if there is only a single evaporator, then the compressor will be cycled by the coldest part of the fridge, ie. the freezer.

It just sounds like you need to be more patient and it will get down there.

One last thought... My fridge had a wiring diagram on the back that was quite helpfull when I was repurposing it

Yeah the one in the fridge had live,neutral,earth wires coming from it (only had a quick glance). Seem to run up the back of the fridge and in behind the freezer panel. Probably is looped off the freezer thermostat then. Will have a look behind the panel in the freezer next time to see if the fridge thermo is controlling something further up the ducting in the way of a damper etc.

I will go look for a wiring diagram on mine now.....

D80.

 

[Diesel80]

Yeah the one in the fridge had live,neutral,earth wires coming from it (only had a quick glance). Seem to run up the back of the fridge and in behind the freezer panel. Probably is looped off the freezer thermostat then. Will have a look behind the panel in the freezer next time to see if the fridge thermo is controlling something further up the ducting in the way of a damper etc.

I will go look for a wiring diagram on mine now.....

D80.

Ok, well i have done some further research and have engineered a ghetto, 'no-cut' solution to my issues.
Previously i could not get my fridge to cool below 4 degrees (46L of beer) in 2x Fermenters.

I believed i needed to increase air flow into the fridge compartment, and i just successfully achieved this doing the following:

1) Removed the ducting over the front of the evaporator fan.
2) on inspecting the housing their were 4 outlets for the air to travel once blown into the housing by the fan (3 went straight into freezer, the forth down the ducting to the fridge).
3) I adjusted the fridge flow control on the ducting to wide open (sending max air to fridge compartment).
4) got out the trusty duct tape and covered up 60-70% of the 3 sides mentioned above, enclosing more air in the ducting, to build some pressure within the ducting, thus theoretically forcing an increase of air flow down to the fridge area.
5) powered on the fridge, 15 mins later it has gone from 5 degrees (per the fridgemate sensor) to 3 degrees, and the compressor is still running. Previously it would bottom out at 4 degrees on the same sensor and the fridge comp would power down. I put my hand under the 'super chill zone', and now the name is fit for purpose, super chilly!
6) I have set the fridge cold control to max hopefully this allows the compressor to run long enough to knock off some more degrees down to 1 degree on the fridgemate probe to cut the power.

I wonder what the freezing temp of duct tape is?

Just before I hit send i just ducked out and checked temp again, 2 degrees and the comp is still running. Looks like it is case closed (as long as my fridgemate doesn't pack it in!!!!).

Thank you all for input.
If anyone wants some pics of this ghetto fix i will oblige.

D80.